Refrigerator Mafia - D3 - Salt and Sugar Preserve Us

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Peaceful Whale
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:20 pm UTC

TOWN
Peaceful Whale
LaserGuy
Sabrar
Flicky
Heury
moody
Bessie
Znirk
Plytho
flicky
SCUM

I took a while doing this, and then later guy posts a ton... I think his reasoning is pretty solid at this point...

I've never played with flicky before, but in other threads flicky likes to talk, a lot. I feel like flicky is acting kinda weird, but I'm worried about a mislynch...
I have played with Bessie before, and she too seems a little off...
Could they be scum buddies?
What's role fishing? And what's a lyncher? I'm guessing a lyncher is a character with a kill ability?
I feel like I'm too new to judge players based off their pasts, this is only my second game. I really wish I could skim hunt better, right now I'm just a dead weight.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:boomfrog, how many hours until deadline?
Check the counter in his post, we have over three days yet.

Peaceful Whale wrote:TOWN
Peaceful Whale
LaserGuy
Sabrar
Flicky
Heury
moody
Bessie
Znirk
Plytho
flicky
SCUM
You've listed me at both the town end and the scum end.

Peaceful Whale wrote:What's role fishing? And what's a lyncher?
Role-fishing is scum asking questions that try to figure out what roles other players have. A lyncher is someone whose win condition requires them to lynch a particular person to win the game.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:35 pm UTC

Oh, thanks flicky, and
*face slap*
Here's the new list, can't believe I listed flicky twice...

TOWN
Peaceful Whale
LaserGuy
Sabrar
Heury
moody
Bessie
Znirk
Plytho
flicky
SCUM

Yeah you're at the bottom flicky. But note, the button 4 people are all pretty much equally scummy to me.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby flicky1991 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:40 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:moody: probably town though don't like the read-list
What about moody's content other than the read-list is townie? Other than discussing the joke votes, he's had very little other content.

Sabrar wrote:plytho: looks very townie, Shakespeare must be kept in mind
Can you elaborate for those of us that don't want to read through an entire thread? I see plytho was scum in that game.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby BoomFrog » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:04 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:boomfrog, how many hours until deadline?

As Flicky said, I just posted the time until deadline here:

BoomFrog wrote:Deadline is Tuesday 11am PDT in about 4 days.

Click the link for an exact countdown.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:28 am UTC

flicky1991 wrote:What about moody's content other than the read-list is townie?
His general tone.

flicky1991 wrote:Can you elaborate for those of us that don't want to read through an entire thread? I see plytho was scum in that game.
He played extremely well and was never really suspected of being scum.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby bessie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:56 am UTC

Some disorganized reactions/replies.

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:So if you think it is important to see my entire case in order to evaluate it, why did you selectively quote me? There were a couple of things I mentioned that led me to my setup speculation (and a couple of things I didn’t mention) and you selected one.
I didn't consider quoting the whole thing because it didn't feel relevant. Just because we don't have cult and you don't want Jester we could have any other roles so using those as a reason for guessing 7-2 or 6-2-1 didn't seem right.

You neglected this:
bessie wrote:Setup. Per the sign ups, simple powers, possibly some vanilla roles.

Sample setup for a 9 player simple/vanilla game. Please note that this is for illustrative purposes only, and does not necessarily align with what I think may be the setup in this game.

1 town even night cop
1 town odd night doctor
1 town tracker (even) / watcher (odd)
1 uniquely BoomFrog town role
2 vanilla town
1 mafia 1-shot ninja
1 mafia 1-shot strongman
1 independent with a win condition tied to the apple

If we take away the simple/vanilla part, we have flexibility to balance for more scum. Sample setup for a dimochka-type super complex non-newbie-friendly game.

1 town cop that only gets a true result if not targeted by a night action, otherwise has an equal chance of an insane cop result or becomes a PGO
1 town doctor that is masons with the jailer and can’t be the first player NKed
1 town jailer that can only be killed if targeted by at least a minimum of two night actions and has mason chat with the doctor
1 town redirector that will be immune to the night kill on nights they select two targets of the same alignment, and is a naive innocent child revealed on D3 if the jester is still alive
1 serial killer with a double vote until he has one successful kill and is immune to the doctor’s protection
1 mafia strongman that is a godfather on nights where there is no one voting for him in the previous day
1 mafia role cop that can either select two targets each night and will receive two non-ordered results, or can decide to receive a list of three random roles that are in the game
1 mafia roleblocker that is also a traitor and will switch alignments to town if targeted by the cop
1 jester that is secret lovers with the mafia godfather, and can anonymously create a neighbor chat between any two players each night

plytho wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:7. LaserGuy - I'd group him win Sabar and Bessie, they all seem to be pretty townie and active.
Active does not equal townie. Especially when you're talking about experienced players.
Peaceful Whale, this is true. There are several players in this game that tend to generate a lot of content regardless of alignment. However, lurking (not posting), or active lurking (making posts that contribute no useful content) is often seen as scummy. For an example of active lurking, see “Sample setup for a dimochka-type super complex non-newbie-friendly game” above. Did I mention that I get easily distracted?

heuristically_alone wrote:Ive been playing mafia on another site and the two things people keep telling me is that when I am mentioned (or found suspicious) I should react to it, which to me feels scummy which is why I typically don't react, and now ironically I got read into here when I gave in with a reaction haha. The second thing is starting to post player reads more.
You don’t need to (immediately) react to everything. But remember more content is always beneficial to town.

heuristically_alone wrote:@bessie, if you were scum, who would you kill tonight?
If I were a serial killer I would withhold.

LaserGuy wrote:bessie: Lots of discussion on setup, particularly with plytho and Sabrar. Doesn't feel as townie as she often does to me. Makes some partial reads that seem plausible. Would like to see some full reads. Putting as neutral.
And what is that supposed to mean? In the previous three games we played together, I was town and you were mafia. In our previous games perhaps I felt townie to you because you knew I was very likely town.

moody7277 wrote:On the whole Peaceful Whale/apple thing, the first thing that came to my mind was lyncher.
+1. Dude, you read my mind. QFT.

Peaceful Whale wrote:I have played with Bessie before, and she too seems a little off...
There seems to be an epidemic of "bessie seems a little off but I can't say how" going around. Would you care to elaborate?

Peaceful Whale wrote:I feel like I'm too new to judge players based off their pasts, this is only my second game. I really wish I could skim hunt better, right now I'm just a dead weight.
Not true. The fact that you are new to the forum gives you a unique perspective from which to judge player content. You’re not dead weight at all, you have generated a good amount of content. We all had a second game. Here’s mine. The best thing you can do to learn the game is post, a lot, and ask questions if you need to. This is a newbie-friendly game so we are honor bound to try to help you out.

flicky1991 wrote:
Sabrar wrote:plytho: looks very townie, Shakespeare must be kept in mind
Can you elaborate for those of us that don't want to read through an entire thread? I see plytho was scum in that game.
He wasn’t just scum, he was the towniest scum ever! He was spectacular! He wasn’t even under suspicion for most of the game! He was near the top of everyone’s town lists! I was blown away by his performance in that game! :D

Znirk wrote:- Bessie: Active player, with a somewhat stream-of-consciousness-ish writing style (but I'm the last person who can complain about that).
I've been a bit more disorganized in my posting than is usual. Busy work week. I'll try to have an organized read list up in a bit.

Ninja'd by Sabrar.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:26 am UTC

I'll be V/LA for the weekend.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:55 am UTC

bessie wrote:Sample setup for a 9 player simple/vanilla game. Please note that this is for illustrative purposes only, and does not necessarily align with what I think may be the setup in this game.
What purpose did these lists serve then? You didn't discuss them at all or draw any conclusions from them, so if they weren't even meant as a guess at the setup then they mean nothing.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:08 am UTC

bessie wrote:You neglected this:
bessie wrote:Setup. Per the sign ups, simple powers, possibly some vanilla roles.
Yes, because it simply didn't occur me how repeating the most basic stuff about the setup could influence your analysis. I mean if you argue that setup is 7-2 because roles are simple so can't counteract the numerical disadvantage of 6-3 then I completely agree however in that case your original sentence-ordering is wrong in my opinion as this premise is far from the conclusion, not seeming to have a connection to it.

bessie wrote:
heuristically_alone wrote:@bessie, if you were scum, who would you kill tonight?
If I were a serial killer I would withhold.
You do realize that that wasn't the intended question, right?

bessie wrote:There seems to be an epidemic of "bessie seems a little off but I can't say how" going around. Would you care to elaborate?
How does it feel to be on the receiving end of this? :D

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:19 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:On the whole Peaceful Whale/apple thing, the first thing that came to my mind was lyncher.
Lyncher wouldn't be my first thought in a newbie-friendly game.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:19 am UTC

Re-read of LaserGuy shows nothing that screams townie to me but there are a number of red flags.

1. Here I would expect at least a mention from town!LaserGuy on the possibility of scum or Vig killing a Jester even if then realizes that Jester is intentionally acting scummy so mafia probably won't help us in that regard.
2. As mentioned multiple times before saying that something feels off is not particularly helpful and is in fact a way to avoid having to give concrete reads. He does it here and later doubles down here. Plus if all he found as 'off' was that plytho wasn't active lurking in his opinion then his initial comment doesn't really makes sense.
3. His read on plytho is weird as he is basically putting him as scum based on a single similarity with a previous game.
4. Don't like this. Dismisses too easily the possibility of honest curiosity and possible scum-hunting.

I think LaserGuy is scum (again). In case I'm wrong his read on flicky is genuine and aligns with mine therefore I am currently okay with lynching either of them.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Znirk » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:43 am UTC

This is an ego-post, a few reactions to people talking about me. I'll look at other stuff over the next couple of hours. In particular it looks like I need to take a close look at Flicky and form a stronger opinion there.

Sabrar wrote:Znirk's first post contains basically no relevant content. Has exactly 1 scum-read with a lot of wishy-washy neutral ones. Mostly summarizing content and providing only a few reasons for his reads, I've always been against that sort of thing.

I enjoy Mafia as a game of intuition. When a game of mafia becomes solvable by deductive reasoning, the game as an interesting activity is over at that point. Reads are gut impressions; reasons are what you may or may not find as supporting evidence to try to convince other players of your opinion. Once we get into voting and lynching, arguments and reasons become essential, but for now I'm chiefly interested in who I find scummy. And yes, the formulated reasons why I find anyone in particular to be potential scum are secondary to the impression of scumminess itself.

As for the other part of your comment: A summary for myself is pretty much what I was doing there. The choice is between either being thorough (i.e. discussing all players, covering their salient actions) but not saying a whole lot about many of them, or being spectacular, producing only the juiciest soundbites and ignoring the players who don't provide much entertainment value. I think it's important to remain aware of the entire cast and not let anyone coast in the background, even if there isn't that much to say about them at that specific moment.

What specifically is it that you have always been against?

Sabrar wrote:Currently finding him scummy, though his apparent willingness to reconsider the 'haha' thing is more indicative of town.

heuristically_alone wrote:I feel like most players as town would tend to be more stubborn and stick to their guns, while mafia will be more willing to appear open minded. So for me I feel like showing a willingness to reconsider would be more scum indicative.

On day one, with over 80 hours to deadline, I'm not looking for fixed opinions. I'm looking for things to watch out for over the coming real-life days. Of course anything is up for reconsideration.

heuristically_alone wrote:Seems like Znirk has found a player to target and now is trying to create scum reads on them, which to me feels scummy.

How does this fit together with the quote further up from a later post of yours? If suspecting someone and looking for supporting evidence on that target is scummy, and backing off from such a target is also scummy, then how does a town player in your world ever a) arrive at a scum read and b) change their mind?

Sabrar wrote:I would be very much surprised if the 'apple' would be an in-game reference and I feel like anyone who focuses onto it too much is either misguided or deliberately attempting to generate useless content. Looking specifically at Znirk here who built up quite a big story from a single comment.

As Heury noticed Whale has made a "forbidden fruit" reference since. Do you think there's any relevance there?

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:58 am UTC

Znirk wrote:What specifically is it that you have always been against?
People summarizing the content of others in their read-list instead of giving actual reasons why that specific content is townie/scummy. You can generate a lot of unnecessary content that way and all players are expected to read the thread anyway so should be aware of what others said.

Znirk wrote:As Heury noticed Whale has made a "forbidden fruit" reference since. Do you think there's any relevance there?
I don't, because of meta-reasons.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Znirk » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:54 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:People summarizing the content of others in their read-list instead of giving actual reasons why that specific content is townie/scummy. You can generate a lot of unnecessary content that way and all players are expected to read the thread anyway so should be aware of what others said.

Now that makes sense. OK; but the summary in and of itself is not the point of such a post (I'm pointing out what sticks out to me, rather than all of what they said). So the information is in the selection of material. You seem to have a more analytical approach which would admittedly be better served with a more explicit, less rambly post, but that's partly a question of style and partly a matter of time constraints in writing posts.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby plytho » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:38 pm UTC

I’m still waiting for some feedback on this post. I’d like bessie to answer my questions and the rest of you to let me know if you understand my concern. I’m concerned about an inconsistency in bessie’s post. It’s not: “bessie, I disagree with you about setup.”, it’s “bessie: you don’t seem to make sense here, what’s up with that?”

Peaceful Whale, I don’t think you’ve answered this yet:
plytho wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:3. moody7277- pretty towny, but jumped on PW becuase of a joke vote.
What about moody's posts makes him look townie?


moody7277 wrote:plytho - joke votes LaserGuy, statement about tie votes, and some setup spec. some discussion with bessie over how scum would treat tie votes. starts getting into the weeds a little, but moves on to other players. town-to-scum list with PW and LaserGuy on top, bessie and heury on bottom. slightly townie.
What do you mean with the bolded (by me) expression? I'm not familiar with it.


Peaceful Whale wrote:Oh... thanks, this is making a lot more sense now. Maybe I should just get a mentor or something.
@BoomFrog: maybe you could ask in Gojoe if someone wants to mentor Peaceful Whale?
he him his

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby bessie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:53 pm UTC

Sorry I wasn’t back sooner. I fell asleep reading the thread last night. I will have time for a longer post this afternoon.

flicky1991 wrote:
bessie wrote:Sample setup for a 9 player simple/vanilla game. Please note that this is for illustrative purposes only, and does not necessarily align with what I think may be the setup in this game.
What purpose did these lists serve then? You didn't discuss them at all or draw any conclusions from them, so if they weren't even meant as a guess at the setup then they mean nothing.
The conclusion is that the description of the setup as given in the signups (is one of the things that) would imply that the actual setup is closer to the first option than to the second option. The first option is not my exact guess as to the actual setup in this game, but is similar in structure and power distribution to my current guess. The second option was presented as contrast to the first to illustrate my point, and became more descriptive than originally intended because I tend to go on a bit when talking about the setup, because I like setup speculation, and I usually do it in my first post. In WoT2 much of the game was setup speculation, and Gopher of Pern was convinced I was scum until the end of the game because I speculated there was a recruiter in my opening post (I was “town” and correct).

Sabrar wrote:Yes, because it simply didn't occur me how repeating the most basic stuff about the setup could influence your analysis. I mean if you argue that setup is 7-2 because roles are simple so can't counteract the numerical disadvantage of 6-3 then I completely agree however in that case your original sentence-ordering is wrong in my opinion as this premise is far from the conclusion, not seeming to have a connection to it.
I don’t understand your point. Why wouldn’t the description of the setup as given in the signups be considered when formulating my setup speculation? And, I think I said somewhere that there were a number of things I considered when formulating my initial setup spec. And, sorry I will be more precise in the future in the way I present my thoughts if stream-on-consciousness is too confusing.

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:
heuristically_alone wrote:@bessie, if you were scum, who would you kill tonight?
If I were a serial killer I would withhold.
You do realize that that wasn't the intended question, right?
No it didn’t even occur to me! :shock: Yes of course I know the true implied question, which I'm not giong to answer. However I gave a valid answer to the question as asked. Have I mentioned before that I like to use “mafia” when I specifically mean mafia to distinguish it from scum, which to me can refer to mafia and other anti-town factions? Oh and the answer to that question is yes.

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:There seems to be an epidemic of "bessie seems a little off but I can't say how" going around. Would you care to elaborate?
How does it feel to be on the receiving end of this? :D
I’m sure it’s not the first time. I would look for examples but I’m going out in a few minutes. Maybe later when I get back.

I'll pick up where I left off in a few hours. Ninja'd by plytho too.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

@plytho Moody has been actively scum hunting, though some people that he thinks are scum are pretty towny. He is looking kinda scummy. We've got about 3 days until deadline. I feel like it's still to early to tell. So far, almost everyone is towny to me.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby moody7277 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:31 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
moody7277 wrote:plytho - joke votes LaserGuy, statement about tie votes, and some setup spec. some discussion with bessie over how scum would treat tie votes. starts getting into the weeds a little, but moves on to other players. town-to-scum list with PW and LaserGuy on top, bessie and heury on bottom. slightly townie.

What do you mean with the bolded (by me) expression? I'm not familiar with it.



Your post here involves some discussion that is a bit more detailed than I thought was necessary or relevant. Makes for a possible area where scum could look like they were contributing without looking for scum.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby plytho » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:51 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:
plytho wrote:
moody7277 wrote:plytho - joke votes LaserGuy, statement about tie votes, and some setup spec. some discussion with bessie over how scum would treat tie votes. starts getting into the weeds a little, but moves on to other players. town-to-scum list with PW and LaserGuy on top, bessie and heury on bottom. slightly townie.

What do you mean with the bolded (by me) expression? I'm not familiar with it.



Your post here involves some discussion that is a bit more detailed than I thought was necessary or relevant. Makes for a possible area where scum could look like they were contributing without looking for scum.
I do think it's relevant,that's why I referred to it again here. I noticed an inconsistency and it hasn't been addressed yet. This sort of thing tends to get stuck in my mind like a pop song until I post about, that's why I posted that before my reads list.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby plytho » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:22 pm UTC

Thoughts about everyone in alphabetical order:

Bessie: needs to answer those questions.
Flicky: needs to do more than just mention everyone in one post. He’s definitely sliding towards the scummy end of my list.
Heury: I agree with LaserGuy (and disagree with Sabrar apparently) about the role fishing.
heuristically_alone wrote:I feel like most players as town would tend to be more stubborn and stick to their guns, while mafia will be more willing to appear open minded. So for me I feel like showing a willingness to reconsider would be more scum indicative.
I disagree with you here. Town needs to find an lynch scum and has to avoid being wrong about players so when they make a mistake they should reconsider. Scum, on the other hand, know they’re wrong already when they call a townie out for scummy behaviour they’re not figuring out who’s scum and who’s not, they just want to get town lynched.

LaserGuy: Still feels pretty townie to me despite this:
LaserGuy wrote:plytho: Spends a lot of time arguing with bessie about a specific point on the setup. I'll note that plytho did something very similar in Shakespeare III where he spent much of D1 arguing with jimbob about setup as well, and plytho was scum that game.
being wrong. I checked back because I didn’t remember it and in fact it was Sabrar arguing with jimbob D1. I did get into an argument with Gopher from D2 onwards but that’s what my scumhunting looks like (I was convinced he was on the rival scum team). I’ll chalk this up as misremembering for now but if you show other scummy behaviour I’ll start thinking this was malicious.

Moody: Needs more scum reads, Znirk is the only one he reads as (slightly) scummy
moody7277 wrote:Znirk - joke votes no lynch (I hope *twitch*), small amount of setup spec, and a promise of more content. slightly scummy pending what's to come.
Also, why the twitch?

Peaceful Whale:
Peaceful Whale wrote:@plytho Moody has been actively scum hunting, though some people that he thinks are scum are pretty towny. He is looking kinda scummy. We've got about 3 days until deadline. I feel like it's still to early to tell. So far, almost everyone is towny to me.
Where did you see moody actively scum hunting?

Plytho:
Sabrar wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:Can you elaborate for those of us that don't want to read through an entire thread? I see plytho was scum in that game.
He played extremely well and was never really suspected of being scum.
bessie wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:
Sabrar wrote:plytho: looks very townie, Shakespeare must be kept in mind
Can you elaborate for those of us that don't want to read through an entire thread? I see plytho was scum in that game.
He wasn’t just scum, he was the towniest scum ever! He was spectacular! He wasn’t even under suspicion for most of the game! He was near the top of everyone’s town lists! I was blown away by his performance in that game! :D
I'm flattered :D

Sabrar: I’m not convinced by Sabrar’s case on LaserGuy.
Sabrar wrote:1. Here I would expect at least a mention from town!LaserGuy on the possibility of scum or Vig killing a Jester even if then realizes that Jester is intentionally acting scummy so mafia probably won't help us in that regard.
2. As mentioned multiple times before saying that something feels off is not particularly helpful and is in fact a way to avoid having to give concrete reads. He does it here and later doubles down here. Plus if all he found as 'off' was that plytho wasn't active lurking in his opinion then his initial comment doesn't really makes sense.
3. His read on plytho is weird as he is basically putting him as scum based on a single similarity with a previous game.
4. Don't like this. Dismisses too easily the possibility of honest curiosity and possible scum-hunting.

1. The last sentence in LaserGuy’s post seems to come from a townie trying to figure out what they can do to deal with a jester. Hoping they get night killed isn’t a strategy there.
2. And 3. Yeah, his read on me isn’t too strong, that doesn’t mean he’s scum though.
4. I do like that. I’m honestly curious about everyone’s role but I don’t go asking for them.

There’s maybe a little bit there but not all that much.

Znirk: I have no problem his reads post (unlike others), it’s a different style but I like that. I would like to see Znirk interact more with people though.

Znirk wrote:In my kitchen experience an apple does not belong in the fridge

My SO sometimes puts apples in the fridge and it upsets me a little bit. Hmm, I wonder if Peaceful Whale’s mention of that apple is the reason I just ate an apple for the first time in weeks :)

Right now I could vote for bessie or flicky.

Reminder: (because I forget about it myself) scum have daychat in this game so they are coordinating as we speak (or as they speak :wink: ). So I assume tells through interactions look different then they do with nightchat.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby moody7277 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:30 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Also, why the twitch?


I have a lengthy history of being antagonistic to those who vote no lynch except in those rare situations where it's tactically useful.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby BoomFrog » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:30 pm UTC

plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: maybe you could ask in Gojoe if someone wants to mentor Peaceful Whale?

I've discussed the matter privately and will get a mentor if needed.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

Currently I feel that learning on my own is better. I can make my own mistakes and learn from them. Thanks you all for being so supportive! I think that we can win this game! It will be my first time! (I don't think last game counts becuase I quit halfway).

I feel like I've been to suspicious of Bessie. Now that I've gone back and reread, I don't think he/she's (what do you prefer Bessie?) necessarily scum, but maybe an independent or special power role? Bessie, what are your thoughts, plytho had been pretty adamant about you being skum. I feel like he's either townie trying to skum hunt, or skum trying to persuade townies to lynch town. Any thoughts on the matter. I feel like you've been pretty townie, even though I feel like you've been playing differently from last game.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:09 pm UTC

I kind of think plytho and Sabrar are putting way too much thought into bessie wording an argument differently than they would have.

However, my scummiest read is moody. Hardly any of what he's written is useful content as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, why not:

Vote moody7277

for now.

@Znirk: Why do you still have a vote registered on "no lynch" (unless I've missed you removing it somewhere)?

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:24 pm UTC

I agree with you flicky, however I'm a little hesitant about voting. If we mislynch today, and when mafia kills one of us, we'd be at 2 mafia - 5 town. Hopefully mafia doesn't have any extra kill abilities, becuase then it might be 2-4. I'm optimistic about our chances of winning. Statistically town should win. As we have more people.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:26 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:I agree with you flicky, however I'm a little hesitant about voting.
We have days until deadline and only one other person has a vote registered. Voting now is not going to lose us the game.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:34 pm UTC

Yes, and neither will waiting. I guess voting now will put pressure on that person and maybe make them crack. Let me reread the posts and get significant evidence before I do, so at least I can defend my vote.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:32 pm UTC

plytho wrote:1. The last sentence in LaserGuy’s post seems to come from a townie trying to figure out what they can do to deal with a jester. Hoping they get night killed isn’t a strategy there.
2. And 3. Yeah, his read on me isn’t too strong, that doesn’t mean he’s scum though.
4. I do like that. I’m honestly curious about everyone’s role but I don’t go asking for them.
1. 'Instructing' the Vig to kill the Jester is a valid strategy.
2.-3. No, it doesn't mean it in itself. It also doesn't mean it's insignificant.
4. There is the 'subtle' role-fishing that scum usually does when trying to get answers that would reveal a town!PR. Then there are the direct questions which mostly come from town because of a concrete issue.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby plytho » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:03 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote: Bessie, what are your thoughts, plytho had been pretty adamant about you being skum.
I wouldn’t say I’m adamant about bessie being scum. I am adamant that she said something suspicious.

flicky1991 wrote:I kind of think plytho and Sabrar are putting way too much thought into bessie wording an argument differently than they would have.

My argument isn’t about the wording.

How I see it: bessie made a post about her setup spec referring to rule #2 as a factor for 7-2 or 6-2-1. After some discussion bessie is saying that was only a small part of her reasoning. Sabrar seems to be saying she worded it as being a larger part of it. I’m arguing it’s wrong to say that rule #2 points towards 7-2 or 6-2-1 as it points more towards 6-3.

I’m not saying btw that I think we’re in 6-3 because of rule #2, just that it’s a (slight) town favoring measure.

flicky1991 wrote:@Znirk: Why do you still have a vote registered on "no lynch" (unless I've missed you removing it somewhere)?

Znirk unvoted here in his reads post.

Sabrar wrote:
plytho wrote:1. The last sentence in LaserGuy’s post seems to come from a townie trying to figure out what they can do to deal with a jester. Hoping they get night killed isn’t a strategy there.
2. And 3. Yeah, his read on me isn’t too strong, that doesn’t mean he’s scum though.
4. I do like that. I’m honestly curious about everyone’s role but I don’t go asking for them.
1. 'Instructing' the Vig to kill the Jester is a valid strategy.
2.-3. No, it doesn't mean it in itself. It also doesn't mean it's insignificant.
4. There is the 'subtle' role-fishing that scum usually does when trying to get answers that would reveal a town!PR. Then there are the direct questions which mostly come from town because of a concrete issue.

1. True, but I wouldn’t hold it against someone to forget about that.
2.-3. True it’s not insignificant and I’ll keep it in mind
4. Heury’s question didn’t feel like that to me.

It could be that you're picking up on some scum tells, I will keep this all in mind. I'm just saying it's not conclusive evidence.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:14 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:@Znirk: Why do you still have a vote registered on "no lynch" (unless I've missed you removing it somewhere)?

Znirk unvoted here in his reads post.
Oops, thanks.

Peaceful Whale wrote:I guess voting now will put pressure on that person and maybe make them crack. Let me reread the posts and get significant evidence before I do, so at least I can defend my vote.
Who would you be voting for if you were voting?

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:17 pm UTC

I'm thinking of plytho or flicky... but right now it's only a gut feeling from a few off reads... let me get some evidence and I'll vote. But I think plytho's higher up on my skum list.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby bessie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:33 pm UTC

More reactions/responses.

Sabrar wrote:
Znirk wrote:What specifically is it that you have always been against?
People summarizing the content of others in their read-list instead of giving actual reasons why that specific content is townie/scummy. You can generate a lot of unnecessary content that way and all players are expected to read the thread anyway so should be aware of what others said.
True, and some players include their summaries separate from their reads in a spoiler. But I find that it can be useful to see what someone thought was important enough to note.

plytho wrote:I’m still waiting for some feedback on this post. I’d like bessie to answer my questions and the rest of you to let me know if you understand my concern. I’m concerned about an inconsistency in bessie’s post. It’s not: “bessie, I disagree with you about setup.”, it’s “bessie: you don’t seem to make sense here, what’s up with that?”
plytho and Sabrar continue to attack me on the wording of my setup spec in my first post, and from different positions. It’s almost like they’re coordinating. :? Ok, let’s see. Original quote for reference. Again.

bessie wrote: Setup. Per the sign ups, simple powers, possibly some vanilla roles. Per the game specific rules, no cult. I hope rule #5 is a joke, because jester is an annoying enough role in itself. Per rule #2, tying the votes won’t stop the lynch. So I’m going to say 7-2, or 6-2-1 where independent is not anti-town. Need to think about this a little.


Stuff specifically claimed or inferred from the content in this quote:

1. This game had an advertised setup, and we should assume it is truthful.
2. The powers present in this game, if any, are simple powers.
3. There are possibly some vanilla roles (can be town or mafia).
4. bessie read the game specific rules.
5. There is no cult.
6. There is a possibility that Rule #5 is a red herring, and there is no jester in this game.
7. Per Rule #2 tying the votes won’t stop the lynch.
8. bessie’s initial setup spec is 7-2 or 6-2-1, and thoughts contained in this post were used to make that evaluation.
9. This evaluation is preliminary, and bessie reserves the right to think about it and submit revisions.

Sabrar misinterprets bessie’s thought process and assumes bessie’s post presents a linear thought progression: A leads to B leads to C, and if C therefore the result is D. He also selectively quoted C and D to illustrate this.

plytho sees an opening and decides to get in on it.

bessie responds with a post discussing some methods mods use for resolving tied votes. This has actually been discussed at length in the Gojoe thread before. I think. Maybe it was the Meta thread. Maybe it was at the end of a game. Maybe if anyone is really interested Deva can help us out later. This post also contains a very brief reflection about how Rule #2 made me think small scum team, explained very poorly. Forcing no lynch in this game is not a possible scum strategy by design. Would a mod design a game and give the mafia team the ability to tie the votals and force a no lynch as one of their abilities? I don’t know, but he didn’t in this game. I wonder what powers he did give them? It must be powers though, and not numbers.

bessie clarifies her thought process for Sabrar. It’s the stated A, B, C, and the unstated E, F, and G, which contribute to result D. A, B, and C are not necessarily in chronological order, or in order of importance, and do not represent a linear progression of thought.

[insert more posts from all three of them here.]

Ok, here’s the post plytho wants me to respond to.

plytho wrote:I’ll start with my interpretation of your quote:
bessie wrote:Per rule #2, tying the votes won’t stop the lynch. So I’m going to say 7-2, or 6-2-1 where independent is not anti-town.
I’m not that confident in my own setup speculation but with 9 players I assume we’d be somewhere between 7-2 and 6-3. Without taking powers into account, 7-2 obviously favors town more than 7-3. This means strong scum powers mean a higher likelihood of 7-2 and strong town powers mean a higher likelihood of 7-3.

So, in this context, when you say “based on rule #2 I’m thinking 7-2” I interpret this as: ‘rule #2 tips the balance towards scum, away from 6-3 and towards 7-2’. Am I reading this correctly?
I don’t think that your interpretation is necessarily incorrect in context. But as pointed out before in this post, and here, and here, and here, I was selectively quoted by Sabrar, and the clipped quote can be interpreted as “bessie thinks the setup is 7-2 based on her interpretation of Rule #2”. This misses the larger context of the truncated quote. And in the next part of your post, you use some examples I gave of how other mods resolve tied votes as evidence to support this read (like what?).

plytho wrote:3. Is rule #2 and this favors town. This, to me, means that the balance shifts towards 6-3 rather than 7-2. (or towards stronger scum powers)
Rule #2 made me think that strategic lynch blocking as a mafia power was not in the design of this game.

plytho wrote:Or are you just saying that a three man team is too powerful D2? Which is sort of independent of rule #2. As this is the case for each of the three scenarios you mentioned. (And slightly less so for rule #2 than for the other possible versions of rule #2.)
It’s not necessarily independent of Rule #2. See above. At this point I’m seriously confused as to what response you are expecting from me. So have at what I just posted. If you need more to solidify your scum case against me just ask.

plytho wrote:Reminder: (because I forget about it myself) scum have daychat in this game so they are coordinating as we speak (or as they speak :wink: ). So I assume tells through interactions look different then they do with nightchat.
Thank you for the informative reminder that you don’t have chat! :D

Peaceful Whale wrote:Currently I feel that learning on my own is better. I can make my own mistakes and learn from them. Thanks you all for being so supportive! I think that we can win this game! It will be my first time! (I don't think last game counts becuase I quit halfway).

I feel like I've been to suspicious of Bessie. Now that I've gone back and reread, I don't think he/she's (what do you prefer Bessie?) necessarily scum, but maybe an independent or special power role? Bessie, what are your thoughts, plytho had been pretty adamant about you being skum. I feel like he's either townie trying to skum hunt, or skum trying to persuade townies to lynch town. Any thoughts on the matter. I feel like you've been pretty townie, even though I feel like you've been playing differently from last game.
I appreciate your positive attitude toward learning the game!

She/her/hers are my preferred pronouns.

I’m not sure what you’re seeing that is different in the way I’m playing from my last game, or from most of my previous games. Can you give an example?

[insert long wine-soaked bessie meta joke here]

flicky1991 wrote:I kind of think plytho and Sabrar are putting way too much thought into bessie wording an argument differently than they would have.
I do too, but to be honest, I very often do the same thing.

Ninja’d by a lot during the two hours I’ve been working on this post. More later.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:42 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Sabrar misinterprets bessie’s thought process and assumes bessie’s post presents a linear thought progression: A leads to B leads to C, and if C therefore the result is D. He also selectively quoted C and D to illustrate this.
This - as has been clarified already - is not true. My assumption was that only C was relevant to D because of the sentence-order and A and B having (seemingly) nothing to do with it. Not that it matters.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby bessie » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:20 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:Sabrar misinterprets bessie’s thought process and assumes bessie’s post presents a linear thought progression: A leads to B leads to C, and if C therefore the result is D. He also selectively quoted C and D to illustrate this.
This - as has been clarified already - is not true. My assumption was that only C was relevant to D because of the sentence-order and A and B having (seemingly) nothing to do with it. Not that it matters.
Are you referring to this? And you’re right, it doesn’t really matter, I don't think it affects anything else in my post.

I find it funny that you’re more concerned that I misinterpreted your logic then you are with the possibility that I might be thinking of you and plytho as a scum team. :)

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:29 pm UTC

Maybe Sabar doesn't want to entertain that idea. He may be worried! Ooooooooooo. Or it's so preposterous he doesn't even bother responding.

Also, I really like how you all actually appreciate my frail attempts at helping. It's not something that people normally do. Mainly becuase I'm so young :p.

@bessie
1. What do you mean by wine soaked meta joke? A drunk joke?

2. Not really able to put it in words, part of it's your setup analysis, but that's just becuase I was confused and Sabar pointed out some stuff, then some people jumped on it. But sigh your better explaining I think I better understand now.
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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:26 am UTC

bessie wrote:I find it funny that you’re more concerned that I misinterpreted your logic then you are with the possibility that I might be thinking of you and plytho as a scum team. :)
If your whole case of me being scum-buddies with plytho rests on the fact that we both found your wording less than clear then there's nothing for me to comment on.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby Sabrar » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:32 am UTC

Upon further reflection I'm feeling a bit better about flicky.

Vote: LaserGuy

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby bessie » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:33 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
bessie wrote:I find it funny that you’re more concerned that I misinterpreted your logic then you are with the possibility that I might be thinking of you and plytho as a scum team. :)
If your whole case of me being scum-buddies with plytho rests on the fact that we both found your wording less than clear then there's nothing for me to comment on.
Where did I try to make a case on you and plytho being scum buddies? I was just wondering if your mind would go there. And it did.

Peaceful Whale wrote:@bessie
1. What do you mean by wine soaked meta joke? A drunk joke?
Peaceful Whale, the joke is that the random number generator quite often assigns me an alignment of town. There was a similar joke on page 1 of this game referring to LaserGuy’s meta. He’s been mafia in 4/5 of his previous games. BoomFrog made a joke about my townie meta in X-Men Mafia that you probably missed.

Wine is, well, read this. Someone else can probably explain it better than me.


Here’s some very unsatisfying reads, but I’m trying not to rehash things I’ve already said.

flicky1991 – I really don’t have a good read on the blue bird of the forum. Wine, but I think his evaluation of me vs Sabrar here was (probably) pretty accurate. Not a lot of reads on others though, just says that there’s not much to read. I don’t believe in making neutral reads so I need to think about flicky some more.

heuristically_alone – I already expressed my concerns about this post but I am satisfied with his explanation. I don’t like that his content has tapered off though. Very slight town lean, pending more content.

LaserGuy – Early read on me was that my interactions with plytho seemed a bit off. When asked to elaborate, he instead just pointed to one of heury’s posts and my active lurking comment. Hmm, I don’t like this post either, more excuses for not answering the question. LaserGuy, please respond to my question to you in this post. Leaning scum.

moody7277 – everything he has posted so far entirely fits with his meta, which I usually read as scummy, so he’s not deliberately trying to counter his meta and present himself as townie. Therefore I have a town lean on him.

Peaceful Whale – No meta, so no meta read. No real game read either, because things I would find scummy in a more experienced player can be attributed to newbieness. Making a good effort to participate and learn. Not on my lynch list for today. Peaceful Whale, I do need to warn you that D2 you will lose some of this newbie allowance, and everyone might be a little tougher on you. Neutral indie.

plytho – I find it interesting that the active lurking comment I made in my second post generated so much discussion, and in my opinion, an overreaction. plytho’s very odd tunneling on me reminds me a lot of LaserGuy on D2 in Shakespeare Mafia. He’s doing the opposite of scum hunting, in that he’s decided I'm scummy and is looking for scumtells to support this read, instead of the other way around. Scum lean.

Sabrar – I think it’s interesting that so many people are claiming Sabrar is so hard to read on D1. I’ve found the opposite to be true more often than not. When Sabrar is scum, someone (not everyone, but someone) usually has a pretty strong scum read on him D1. I find his posting in this game a little lighter than is usual (usually associated with but not indicative of his scum meta). So while I don’t have the strong town read I had on him D1 of Shakespeare, I don’t have a scum read either, so I think he’s probably town.

Znirk – I like what he’s posted so far. There was a lot of summary in his list, but he posted reads and opinions too. Neutral leaning town.

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Re: Refrigerator Mafia - D1 - The Purge Begins

Postby plytho » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:14 am UTC

This is another post about this little line from bessie:
bessie wrote: Per rule #2, tying the votes won’t stop the lynch. So I’m going to say 7-2, or 6-2-1 where independent is not anti-town.

I’m not saying this is a conclusive scum tell, it’s probably all just a big misunderstanding but this is me right now and I can’t stop until bessie points out where I’m wrong or admits she’s wrong.

These represent my general thoughts on this issue:
Hmm, Sabrar’s right something’s wrong with that line from bessie. I’ll support his question.
Hmm, bessie doesn’t answer and instead calls me an active lurker, weird. I hope she clears up that question though, starting to look scummy.
[Long post by my trying to explain my point.]
[Long post by bessie, replying to my points.]
Hmm, it’s starting to look like a misunderstanding rather than covering up a mistake. I’m going to try to explain myself better. (This is where I am now.)

Here I go:

Summary of my specific issues with that line:
1. when I’m talking about rule #2 I’m talking about rule #2 compared to other possible tie breaking rules. So when I read “rule #2 implies 7-2” I interpret this as “more so than other tie breaking rules, rule #2 implies 7-2”
2. I think rule #2 favors town. By this I mean: This specific tie breaking rule favors town more than other possible tie breaking rules. Because it favors town more, it might indicate that this is a balance measure for a stronger scum team. This means this rule makes a larger scum team (or one with stronger powers) more likely than other tie breaking rules.
3. I haven’t really gone into this bit yet but rule #2 has two parts 1: ties result in random lynch, 2: no-lynch wins ties. In the original line bessie only mentioned the first part. In the following posts she seems to be talking about the no-lynch part to defend her position. [retracted below]

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:I’ll start with my interpretation of your quote:
bessie wrote:Per rule #2, tying the votes won’t stop the lynch. So I’m going to say 7-2, or 6-2-1 where independent is not anti-town.
I’m not that confident in my own setup speculation but with 9 players I assume we’d be somewhere between 7-2 and 6-3. Without taking powers into account, 7-2 obviously favors town more than 7-3. This means strong scum powers mean a higher likelihood of 7-2 and strong town powers mean a higher likelihood of 7-3.



So, in this context, when you say “based on rule #2 I’m thinking 7-2” I interpret this as: ‘rule #2 tips the balance towards scum, away from 6-3 and towards 7-2’. Am I reading this correctly?
I don’t think that your interpretation is necessarily incorrect in context. But as pointed out before in this post, and here, and here, and here, I was selectively quoted by Sabrar, and the clipped quote can be interpreted as “bessie thinks the setup is 7-2 based on her interpretation of Rule #2”. This misses the larger context of the truncated quote. And in the next part of your post, you use some examples I gave of how other mods resolve tied votes as evidence to support this read (like what?).

The larger context isn’t relevant to my issue with that line. I’m not saying rule #2 on it’s own isn’t enough to explain 7-2. I’m saying it points away from that. The larger context does point to 7-2, rule #2 is an exception.


bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:3. Is rule #2 and this favors town. This, to me, means that the balance shifts towards 6-3 rather than 7-2. (or towards stronger scum powers)
Rule #2 made me think that strategic lynch blocking as a mafia power was not in the design of this game.
Exactly, so if the strategic lynch block as a mafia power is not in the design, what is compensating for that? Another mafia power? 3 mafia instead of 2?


bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:Or are you just saying that a three man team is too powerful D2? Which is sort of independent of rule #2. As this is the case for each of the three scenarios you mentioned. (And slightly less so for rule #2 than for the other possible versions of rule #2.)
It’s not necessarily independent of Rule #2. See above. At this point I’m seriously confused as to what response you are expecting from me. So have at what I just posted. If you need more to solidify your scum case against me just ask.

Is this what you mean by see above?
bessie wrote:This post also contains a very brief reflection about how Rule #2 made me think small scum team, explained very poorly. Forcing no lynch in this game is not a possible scum strategy by design. Would a mod design a game and give the mafia team the ability to tie the votals and force a no lynch as one of their abilities? I don’t know, but he didn’t in this game. I wonder what powers he did give them? It must be powers though, and not numbers.

Oh, I just realise I made a mistake in my point 3 above. I didn’t realise there’s a no-lynch factor in the first part of rule #2 as well :oops:

Anyway: this quote has your reasoning concerning rule #2 where I think we start to align.
I’m going to try to rephrase the bolded (by me) part:
The mod made a decision about tie breaking, choosing to make things harder for mafia by taking away their ability to force no-lynch. This means the mod must have given mafia powers to compensate. Powers, not numbers, because numbers would be too strong. (Or do you have a specific rule #2 based explanation why it’s powers and not number?)

So you’re saying you think it’s 7-2 (or 6-2-1) despite rule #2, rather than because of it? Which is what I’ve been trying to say. Please confirm.
I hope this is cleared up now :)
he him his


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