HD vs Blu-Ray?

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HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Fossa » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:46 pm UTC

I was actually quite surprised that a search on the topic turned up next to nothing.

I'm curious where things stand on the format front these days. Last I heard certain studios were firmly entrenched and no real end was in sight. I've also heard that this is destined to go the way of VHS and Betamax as opposed to the way DVDs went +/- (i.e. a reader/burner that does both will be rare and would be as expensive as the two seperate units since they use completely different technology).

As a poor college student who craves high definition DVD, I'm really torn at the moment and wandering what you fine people have to say on the matter.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby rabyd_donkey » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:48 pm UTC

Sony sucks? I think that solves this one. Next!

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby zenten » Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:56 pm UTC

I have yet to get a television that would see any difference between regular DVDs and these new ones, and I don't think that will change any time soon.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby FACM » Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:03 pm UTC

All of my media ends up becoming a file on a computer somewhere. The source media makes very little difference to me. I will stick with DVDs until they die, for both [relative] ease of format-shifting and because I'm not paying several hundred dollars for a resolution boost on a movie.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:33 pm UTC

Studios are mostly all one or the other with little chance of changing. Both formats have their pros and cons, but I think HD-DVD is a slightly better format since, if nothing else, it's set. Blu-Ray is STILL not finalized. It's apparently a big deal that the first Blu-Ray 1.1 movie with picture-in-picture was released in Germany, but there's no players available in Germany that use it, and the format's region locked so no one outside the EU can watch it. HD-DVD has had the feature since day one and several movies have already taken advantage of it. It also has internet connectivity in every player (whether used or not). Also Sony is behind Blu-Ray and we know how successful BetaMax, Minidisc, and UMD have been.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby LDJosh » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:24 pm UTC

While I think Blu-Ray over all is a superior format, from a technological perspective, the HD-DVD is the more stable, cheaper, and more effective format.
Sony fucked up. plain and simple. they were so busy pushing the PS3 & blu-ray at the same time, that they didn't do either of them right. The format and the player both suffered, and as a result, it's floundering now.

Blu-Ray will most likely never reach its full potential.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:29 pm UTC

Blu-Ray as a medium is superior to HD-DVD, when taken at face value, but there's some key abilities of HD-DVD that Blu-Ray lacks. You can press an HD-DVD and DVD on the same disc. You can't with Blu-Ray. Converting a line to HD-DVD is very cheap and easy to do with existing equipment. Blu-Ray requires all new equipment. That said, Blu-Ray can potentially have much, much more storage space.

As movie formats, I think HD-DVD is superior.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby b.i.o » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:14 am UTC

I honestly could care less. The only type of display I'm likely to ever bother buying (or at least anytime in the next 5-6 years) that has a high enough resolution for it to matter is going to be a computer monitor, and so I'll wait until HD movies are distributed digitally.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby LDJosh » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:59 pm UTC

umm...

they are?
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby b.i.o » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:34 am UTC

I meant through legal channels and without DRM. As far as I know there's no good way to download DRM-free HD Movies files legally.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby TomBot » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:56 am UTC

HD-DVD, because its DRM is weaker. AACS has been shown to have some weaknesses (09 f9...). Both formats use AACS, but Blue-Ray has another layer on top of that which could be enabled at some point in the future.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby b.i.o » Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:49 am UTC

Someone's broken that already I believe...

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:59 pm UTC

Silver2Falcon wrote:I meant through legal channels and without DRM. As far as I know there's no good way to download DRM-free HD Movies files legally.

So basically you never plan to watch HD movies?

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby kanavazk » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:29 am UTC

I think I'm going to stick to DVD for the next decade or so.

(I'm slow at transitioning from one medium to another, heck, four years ago, I was still using VHS and I used a frickin' tape recorder!)
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby b.i.o » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:58 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Silver2Falcon wrote:I meant through legal channels and without DRM. As far as I know there's no good way to download DRM-free HD Movies files legally.

So basically you never plan to watch HD movies?


Please.

DRM is on its way out--the movie industry might not have realized this yet, but it is, and a few years down the road I expect things are going to be a lot different on the DRM front. And internet connections are getting a lot faster. DRM-free HD movies might not be happening now but I'm confidant they will in the future.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:50 pm UTC

Silver2Falcon wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:
Silver2Falcon wrote:I meant through legal channels and without DRM. As far as I know there's no good way to download DRM-free HD Movies files legally.

So basically you never plan to watch HD movies?


Please.

DRM is on its way out--the movie industry might not have realized this yet, but it is, and a few years down the road I expect things are going to be a lot different on the DRM front. And internet connections are getting a lot faster. DRM-free HD movies might not be happening now but I'm confidant they will in the future.

Right about the time Linux is the dominant desktop OS, I am sure. The MPAA wants to protect its IP. The MPAA has more money than you. Guess who will win this?

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby TomBot » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:15 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:Right about the time Linux is the dominant desktop OS, I am sure. The MPAA wants to protect its IP. The MPAA has more money than you. Guess who will win this?


By that same logic, the RIAA would never have allowed selling MP3s without DRM. But now they do. It is at least possible that the tide is changing.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Midnight » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:11 am UTC

bluray stores more.











...

i'm pretty sure that covers it. all prices drop in time, that's just a matter of months. So that's much less relevant.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby enk » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:56 am UTC

phlip wrote:Ha HA! Recycled emacs jokes.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby TomBot » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:05 am UTC

That is pretty cool. But to be fair, both HD-DVD and Blue-Ray use the same 405 nm laser.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Workaphobia » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:56 am UTC

Fossa wrote:I was actually quite surprised that a search on the topic turned up next to nothing.

I'm curious where things stand on the format front these days. Last I heard certain studios were firmly entrenched and no real end was in sight. I've also heard that this is destined to go the way of VHS and Betamax as opposed to the way DVDs went +/- (i.e. a reader/burner that does both will be rare and would be as expensive as the two seperate units since they use completely different technology).

As a poor college student who craves high definition DVD, I'm really torn at the moment and wandering what you fine people have to say on the matter.

Sony is pure evil. If you have to side with an evil corporation, even Microsoft is better. Someday I may try to quantify a hierarchy of evil.

That said, I'd just say screw it and go without that particular content until one format kills the other or the protection mechanism looks like it's reliably cracked for good. I think by the time either one takes over, internet distribution will be ready to trump all disc sales, at least in well-connected regions.
Endless Mike wrote:
Silver2Falcon wrote:I meant through legal channels and without DRM. As far as I know there's no good way to download DRM-free HD Movies files legally.

So basically you never plan to watch HD movies?

There's always Elephant's Dream.
Silver2Falcon wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:
Silver2Falcon wrote:I meant through legal channels and without DRM. As far as I know there's no good way to download DRM-free HD Movies files legally.

So basically you never plan to watch HD movies?


Please.

DRM is on its way out--the movie industry might not have realized this yet, but it is, and a few years down the road I expect things are going to be a lot different on the DRM front. And internet connections are getting a lot faster. DRM-free HD movies might not be happening now but I'm confidant they will in the future.

I wish I had your optimism. It's easy to organize protest against DRM for music; listening to music is a common non-central task that people like to do in a variety of ways using a variety of devices, whereas watching a movie is an event in its own right, and consumers already expect to only be able to do it in specific situations. That's the advantage of packing DRM in the first digital media for movies, whereas everyone takes the freedom of the CD for granted. Now I would be thrilled if it turned out as you say, but I don't see why it isn't more likely that we'll see the rise of trusted computing DRM systems supported by odious yet interoperable standards.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby zombie_monkey » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:22 pm UTC

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I could care less.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby EvanED » Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:25 pm UTC

So you care a little bit?

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby zombie_monkey » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:56 am UTC

By posting about it on a forum, if only to express my opinion that it's a non-issue, I do express an opinion. To state that I do not care at all would therefore be self-contradictory.
For more on the elegant and concise phrase "could care less" that seems to irk folk-linguists (or shamans / witch doctors as Pinker called them (IIRC) in "The language instinct" (interestingly, Pinker's "sarcasm" theory on such constructions was strongly challenged)):
1. Language log post:
Spoiler:
Like could care less, give a damn is a Negative Polarity Item, that is, a phrase that is ordinarily used only within the scope of semantic negation of some kind (not, never, only, rarely, few, etc.). Hence the perceived strangeness of They could give a damn, which has no overt negative, but means the same thing as the same phrase with a negative. I.e, the business manager was saying that his members couldn't give a damn.

Give a damn is a member of the open Minimal Direct Object class of NPI's, like lift a finger, drink a drop, do a thing, eat a bite, etc. The implication of all of them is that, if one can't even Verb a Minimal Direct Object, why, then, one couldn't Verb any Direct Object at all. Thus it's an idiomatic intensification of a negative. But it does usually require a negative to intensify.

However, there apparently is such a thing as negation by association. Like what happened to French pas from ne...pas, which is now usable as a negative in its own right, from long association in the discontinuous morpheme with the overt negative ne, give a damn and could care less have, in American usage at least, come to have their own quasi-independent negative force.

Give a damn has been used independently of negatives for at least 25 years in America. I published a paper (J. Lawler, Ample Negatives, in Papers from the Tenth Regional Meeting, Chicago Linguistic Society (CLS 10)) in 1974 that remarked on this topic, among other negative phenomena.

2. alt.usage.english FAQ entry on "could care less"
3. I also recommend this book: Far from the Madding Gerund (and Other Dispatches from Language Log) to anyone who catches themtself thinking about language in silly ways.
I short, "could care less" is an intensification of the idiom "couldn't care less" that not only expresses disinterest but dismisses the issue completely.
EDIT: Also, some interesting statistics: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001209.html. I am somewhat ashamed to admit I chuckled at "The process has been generalized to give with a variety of MSOs ("minimal scatological objects"):"

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Telestia » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:13 pm UTC

Well lets look at it this way. I bought a PS3 for games like Metal Gear Solid 4. I now have a cheap Blu-ray player. Now I don't have an HD capable TV, but I do have a nice 22" widescreen LCD monitor. I can play my purty lookin' games on that and I'm perfectly happy. You really can't beat the price efficiency of buying something to use it for X and getting the use of Y with it.

I really don't get the Sony is pure evil remark. Call me stupid, but what actually makes them PURE EVIL. I could understand, if say, Blu-ray discs were made from the souls of the unborn, but thats just not the case (I hope). Please enlighten me.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby HappySmileMan » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:52 pm UTC

Telestia wrote:I really don't get the Sony is pure evil remark. Call me stupid, but what actually makes them PURE EVIL. I could understand, if say, Blu-ray discs were made from the souls of the unborn, but thats just not the case (I hope). Please enlighten me.


Exactly what I was thinking, I mean maybe they're a bad company, who install rootkits and stuff... But that doesn't even make them as bad as Microsoft, who also aren't evil.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:24 pm UTC

we'll get drives with both functionalities. Same as DVD+R and DVD-R. Sorry but that's just plainly obvious at the moment. These aren't hugely physically different media.

Neither will completely win. I'd imagine neither will get more than about ~60% market share ever. DVDs (and even VHS) still have some share and diginal distribution is growing. A newer standard with even more density on the same classic CD shape is not too many years away either. Point being that neither is going to be that successful.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Workaphobia » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:39 am UTC

Give a damn is a member of the open Minimal Direct Object class of NPI's, like lift a finger, drink a drop, do a thing, eat a bite, etc. The implication of all of them is that, if one can't even Verb a Minimal Direct Object, why, then, one couldn't Verb any Direct Object at all. Thus it's an idiomatic intensification of a negative. But it does usually require a negative to intensify.

There was no part of that sentence I didn't like.
Telestia wrote:I really don't get the Sony is pure evil remark. Call me stupid, but what actually makes them PURE EVIL. I could understand, if say, Blu-ray discs were made from the souls of the unborn, but thats just not the case (I hope). Please enlighten me.

It's quite simple. In Sony's policy, product, executive, and business plan manufacturing processes, unrefined Evil ore is mined from natural sources and enhanced with flavorful items, such as drowned puppies, tears of goddesses, and those souls you mentioned. The solution is then mixed, distilled, and heated to the temperature of Hell for about fifteen minutes. Then the resulting viscous fluid is ready for use in more complex products

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby MotorToad » Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:04 am UTC

I don't get the "Sony is Evil" thing, either. GEICO, now that's an evil company in an evil empire of evil, greedy, dirty corporate whores. I don't know what Sony's ever done other than piss their own efforts away.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like Sony, I find their products to be flawed on many levels. They make great looking TVs, but their remotes make me want to take an engineer to the woodshed. Their car audio is.... fuck that, it's not car audio, it's beneath garbage. A Sony laptop? No, thanks. But I don't see why it is that I've heard from three different trusted sources in the last couple of weeks that Sony is EVIL incarnate.

This subject is important to me, too, as I've just bought a 42" Westy 1080p TV and I want more HD sources for it. I've been inclined to get a PS3 because it's Bluray, 1080p, and I've always liked the Gran Turismo games. I have trouble believing that someone came out with HDDVD and decided to make it 1080i. Fortunately my roommate just bought a xbox so I can wait this one out. I'll stick with the S-VHS for a couple more years! :-D
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Workaphobia » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:00 am UTC

I'm not saying don't buy a PS3 as a cheap bluray player (after all, Sony loses money on each sale in the short term). I'm just saying that between their arrogance, their established position as both a music and movie studio, and their extreme DRM stances, they go above and beyond the transgressions of other companies, to the point that I feel comfortable singling them out as the first to be crushed by my inexorably advancing wall of ice.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Telestia » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:46 pm UTC

Workaphobia wrote:I'm not saying don't buy a PS3 as a cheap bluray player (after all, Sony loses money on each sale in the short term). I'm just saying that between their arrogance, their established position as both a music and movie studio, and their extreme DRM stances, they go above and beyond the transgressions of other companies, to the point that I feel comfortable singling them out as the first to be crushed by my inexorably advancing wall of ice.

Oh yeah, I'm totaly cool with that. The wall of ice thing is a rockin' idea. I'm just saying that calling Sony Pure Evil is a bit of an oversatement.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Axman » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:17 pm UTC

Midnight wrote:bluray stores more.
...
i'm pretty sure that covers it. all prices drop in time, that's just a matter of months. So that's much less relevant.


Nope. HD-DVD finalized a three-layer spec (that works with all current HD-DVD players) that holds 51GB (vs BD 50GB). Although Blu-Ray is getting doubled to 100GB (theoretically) in 2008, the fact is that capacities can shift and that capacity alone is no silver bullet that will win it for either side.

As it stands, I'm rather fond of my up-sampled SD DVDs.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Hurduser » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:33 pm UTC

Both formats are unusable due to DRM. :evil:
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby davean » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:56 pm UTC

I'm waiting for HVDs. I am worried that 3.9TB is a bit small though.

(yah, there are plenty of other options on the table but people aren't as apt to recognize them)

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:53 pm UTC

Well, it's pretty much done. Warner Bros. has officially jumped to Blu Ray only and Paramount is set to use a clause in their HD-DVD exclusivity contract to get out of it and switch over to Blu Ray.

Sony finally got a format through!

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby LDJosh » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

yeah, at CES today Warner put the nail in the HD DVD Coffin. Ironicly, the HD DVD and BLU RAY booths were put next to each other on the showroom floor.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby TomBot » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:10 am UTC

I dunno, has Netcraft confirmed it?

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby LikwidCirkel » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:35 pm UTC

Bah! Just get something like this and something like this and be done with it.

These aren't the only products like this, and now that NEC makes a chip that supports BOTH formats, we're going to be seeing many more products like this very soon with a big price drop.

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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby MFHodge » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:54 pm UTC

Blu-ray was a factor in my choice to buy a PS3 over an Xbox 360. The fact that Blockbuster stores stock only Blu-ray was a factor that made me care at all, since I am a Blockbuster Online subscriber.

Honestly, though, some Blu-ray movies don't look that much better than regular DVDs. At this time I probably wouldn't advise any one to purchase a stand-alone player. I just don't think the picture difference justifies the cost (at this time). Ultimately digital distribution will be the only answer. Probably.
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Re: HD vs Blu-Ray?

Postby Rook » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:00 pm UTC

While I realise this has very little to do with actual technical specifications... I feel the term "HD-DVD" to be misleading, as it rather implies the only possible use for the format is to use up all that extra space for prettier pictures in quantity similar to current DVDs, rather than expanding the actual amount of content per disc.

And "Blu-Ray" just sounds cooler. Not the main reason, honest :roll:

It'll likely be all academic soon anyway; even if Blu-ray loses, I can see it sticking around as a backup format just for it's sheer capacity potential; a double sided dual layer disc would boast 100GB capacity, meaning you the average person I would only need 1 or 2 to back up all my vital files and such.
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