Miscellaneous language questions

For the discussion of language mechanics, grammar, vocabulary, trends, and other such linguistic topics, in english and other languages.

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CharlieP
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby CharlieP » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:23 am UTC

I always say "twenty-sixteen", and it grates when newsreaders etc. say "two thousand and sixteen".

I wonder if more people will switch to paired form as the number of syllables increases - "two thousand and sixteen" is six, which is already too many for me, but "two thousand and seventy seven" is nine, at which point surely the alternative is going to become more appealing?
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:51 am UTC

As far as I can tell in modern American English, the rule for years is the same as the rule for other numbers that aren't counting the quantity of something useful. (Yes, dates are counting years since some reference time, but in practice they're a lot more like addresses and phone numbers than they are like other counts.)

Clarke, I think, had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that I'd tend to say "two thousand one" for 2001 as a phone number or street address, and so I doubt he had any significant influence on how people say it as a year. He definitely has nothing to do with the fact that 2000 is "two thousand" in all three cases, and I imagine the years of referring to 2000 by its full "name" primed us to keep saying "thousand" for the following years. (That's almost certainly why people still say it into the teens.)

Plus "two thousand" is the same number of syllables as "twenty oh".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:44 pm UTC

I say twenty-sixteen. In Hebrew I would say (the equivalent of) "two thousand and sixteen", we don't really have a way to say "twenty sixteen".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:28 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I say twenty-sixteen. In Hebrew I would say (the equivalent of) "two thousand and sixteen", we don't really have a way to say "twenty sixteen".
Don't bother. It'll be AM 5776 until early October... ;)

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Zohar » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:34 pm UTC

No secular person in Israel uses the Hebrew calendar for anything other than holidays (and even then it's like "When is Passover? Let me google that"). And you'd be hard-pressed to find people who know the year, outside of "57-something-something".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Flumble » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:52 pm UTC

I always say the year number in english the way I say it in (my native language) dutch: m-thousand-n when there are no hundreds (the third digit from the right is 0), m(-hundred)-n otherwise.

Soupspoon wrote:
Zohar wrote:I say twenty-sixteen. In Hebrew I would say (the equivalent of) "two thousand and sixteen", we don't really have a way to say "twenty sixteen".
Don't bother. It'll be AM 5776 until early October... ;)

Totally offtopic, but soupspoon you should stop posting (in counted subfora) right now, because you've just reached a chinese (where it's 4713 AH in traditional counting) lucky number that is also palindromic, triangular and a Smith number. :o

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Aiwendil » Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:01 pm UTC

I tend to use "two thousand X" (no "and") for 2000 through 2009 (i.e. "two thousand" through "two thousand nine"), and "twenty X" for 2010 and beyond ("twenty ten").

Strangely, though, for the years 1001 through 1009 I would tend to say "ten oh X" instead of "one thousand X". Obviously, I refer to those years far less frequently than to 2001 through 2009, but I still think it's odd that my habit for the latter doesn't carry over to the former. (For 1000, I always say "one thousand", though).

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Re: "par", "pair", "peer", "pour" and "tour".

Postby Mega85 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:30 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:Now a lot of sources will tell you that Northeasterners like me have special "extra" phonemes in words like "mare/Mary" and "near/nearer", which are lacked by those in the rest of the country – but I think this is a backwards way of analyzing things. When I hear people from most of the rest of the country speaking, I don't usually notice any difference between their "mare" and "near" (or "Mary" and "nearer") and mine – what I notice instead is that they seem to be using those sounds everywhere. GenAm "merry, ferry", "mirror, Sirius" and (especially) "worry" sound to me like "Mary, fairy", "merer, serious" and "whirry" (and other people who I've spoken to seem to agree on this point too). So I think what's happening isn't that we distinguishers have more phonemes, but rather that distinguishers allow sequences of lax vowels + /ɹ/, whereas in merging speech these sequences are disallowed and collapse into the nearest free rhotic phoneme.


Merriam-webster gives "worry" and "whirry" both with \ˈwər-ē, ˈwə-rē\

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worry

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whirry

Do some people that lack the hurry-furry merger say "whirry" as "wuh-ry" rather than "wur-y"?

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Re: Pronunciation of "aur" words like "aura", "aural", "Laura", "Lauren" and "laurel".

Postby stronachbelinda » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:46 am UTC

CharlieP wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:For me, aura/aural/Laura match "story", and Lauren/laurel match "torrent".


Ditto.

Laura the scorer had a poorer aura than foreign Lauren during their laurel quarrel.


I have got the perfect pronounciation of this word through http://www.babynology.com/meaning-laura-f1.html.

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:49 pm UTC

Using the word "hundred" in names of dates is somewhat common around here for older dates. You don't always use the "and" either. So I might say "Magna Carta was signed in twelve hundred fifteen," for instance, though "twelve fifteen" would be somewhat more likely. We would never, ever say "one thousand two hundred fifteen" for the year, though obviously we would say other numbers that way quite frequently.

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Mega85 » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:32 pm UTC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBwazQPbxWs

In the Jay Sean song "2012 (It ain't the End)" 2012 is pronounced "two thousand and twelve".

"We're gonna party like it's the end of the world. We're gonna party like, like it's 2012 (two thousand and twelve)"

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Mega85 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:24 pm UTC

Would you say "in future" or "in the future"? I always say "in the future". I've seen "in future" used online.

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Zohar » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:27 pm UTC

In the future, if this is the context you mean: "In the future, please contact me first" (basically, "next time this happens")
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:32 pm UTC

In the sentence Zohar gave I'd always use "in future". I'd use "in the future" for something like "What do you think holidays will be like in the future when space travel is easy?"
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Zohar » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:35 pm UTC

Hah, that's funny :) I am not a native speaker, by the way, so there's a decent chance I'm wrong. Of course it could also be a cultural difference - I'm used to American English.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby chridd » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:01 pm UTC

I'd use "in the future" in both cases, and don't think I'd ever use "in future" (unless "future" was an adjective and there was a noun after it, maybe). Perhaps an American/British difference, like "in (the) hospital"?
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:06 pm UTC

chridd wrote:I'd use "in the future" in both cases, and don't think I'd ever use "in future" (unless "future" was an adjective and there was a noun after it, maybe). Perhaps an American/British difference, like "in (the) hospital"?
Wait, which are you? I'm English.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby chridd » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:34 pm UTC

USA
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mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...
flicky1991 wrote:In both cases the quote is "I'm being quoted too much!"

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:35 pm UTC

Ah, makes sense then.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:11 pm UTC

"In future," often matches up with the likes of "In school,", whilst "In the future," does with "In the school,"...

"In school, you shall endevour to learn" / "In future, you shall endeavour to learn." (A 'zone', possibly composite, of all education in general and all time yet-to-be.)

"In the school, behave yourself" / "In the future, behave yourself" (A specific location, and specific future-time that may well be "whilsoever you are in my presence", or similar.

Let's try "In a school, there may be children" / "In a future, there may be children" (Not so sure, but it generalises (without all-encompassing) a subset of schools, and precognoses a subset of futures in which children feature, but neither are absolute.)


Therefore I think that "In future", in such context, is conversly more encompassing yet less specifically tied to the speaker. "In the future" implies connection with the speaker and more commanding because of that. But I have doubts. I'm too melded (after playing various scenarios through my mind) to the respective levels of threat that such a phrase would possess if spoken by Havelock Vetinari. (Who uses the phrase "Don't let me detain you" with a quite specific undertone of meaning in mind.)

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby flicky1991 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:12 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:"In the future, behave yourself"
You see, that one still looks weird to me. The sentence needs to be a bit more specific to get that "the".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:32 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:"In the future, behave yourself"
You see, that one still looks weird to me. The sentence needs to be a bit more specific to get that "the".

edited to correct quotenesting..

Which is why I think it needs to be tied to the speaker's presence/influence.

"While you're in my my classroom, I will not tolerate your playing fool. In the future, behave yourself."

(I would personally go with "In future", as I don't have the personality. Except when talking of in "The Future"!!!)
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:37 pm UTC

flicky1991 wrote:The sentence needs to be a bit more specific to get that "the".
Teacher: In the future, you'll behave yourself.
Student: Which future is that?
Teacher: The one where I don't beat your ass.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:21 am UTC

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:39 pm UTC

hmmm... maybe that cause some kind of spike in internationalism? I note that French and German also use their definite articles for their analogous phrases.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Lazar » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:49 pm UTC

I suspect it's not French or German influence, but rather that during both wars a lot of people were writing about how to restructure the world after the end of hostilities. "In the future" is the more relevant phrase in that context.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:56 pm UTC

I'm not sure I've ever heard an American saying "in future" in that way. Would the British also say "in past"? As in, "While in (the) past, people frequently corresponded in writing, today typing is far more common." To me, both sound equally awkward.

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby flicky1991 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:52 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm not sure I've ever heard an American saying "in future" in that way. Would the British also say "in past"? As in, "While in (the) past, people frequently corresponded in writing, today typing is far more common." To me, both sound equally awkward.
No, seems to only happen for "future". I've never heard "in past".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:20 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:I suspect it's not French or German influence, but rather that during both wars a lot of people were writing about how to restructure the world after the end of hostilities. "In the future" is the more relevant phrase in that context.
More relevant relative to "in future" though?

Maybe "In the future" was more formal sounding, and thus more suited to discussing the postwar geopolitical situation.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby jaap » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:49 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Lazar wrote:I suspect it's not French or German influence, but rather that during both wars a lot of people were writing about how to restructure the world after the end of hostilities. "In the future" is the more relevant phrase in that context.
More relevant relative to "in future" though?

Maybe "In the future" was more formal sounding, and thus more suited to discussing the postwar geopolitical situation.

"In future" essentially means 'from now on'. If they were writing about things that were only to come into being after the war, the only correct choice is to use "in the future".

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Lazar » Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:59 pm UTC

What jaap said. It's not about formality, it's that "in the future" is required if you're taking about actions that you intend to take but can't yet take.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Mega85 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:49 am UTC

Do you ever use a verb "vacuum clean"? I've seen it in some dictionaries. While I use "vacuum cleaner" and "vacuum" interchangeably for the appliance, I would only ever use "vacuum" as a verb, never "vacuum clean".

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Xanthir » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:38 am UTC

I only say "vacuum", but I wouldn't look askance at someone saying "vacuum clean".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby CharlieP » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:16 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm not sure I've ever heard an American saying "in future" in that way. Would the British also say "in past"? As in, "While in (the) past, people frequently corresponded in writing, today typing is far more common." To me, both sound equally awkward.


No, but British people wouldn't use "in future" for the temporally opposite sentence either - it would be "in the future, people will frequently correspond by telepathy/grunting/emoji"...

It's hard to explain when "in future" is appropriate, but to me it seems that it usually accompanies an imperative, e.g. "take more care in future".
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby CharlieP » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:18 am UTC

CharlieP wrote:It's hard to explain when "in future" is appropriate, but to me it seems that it usually accompanies an imperative, e.g. "take more care in future".


Ah, I think jaap has nailed it - "in future" means from now on, whereas "in the future" implies a jump forwards in time.
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"In some dialects of American English, \th\ is regularly replaced by \f\."

Postby Mega85 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:54 pm UTC

it says in the merriam-webster pronunciation guide.

In some dialects
of American English, \th\ is regularly replaced by \f\.


http://assets2.merriam-webster.com/mw/s ... iation.pdf

which dialects? i thought this was more of a british english thing.

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Lazar » Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:45 pm UTC

It occurs in AAVE, but on the whole it's much more common in Britain than in the US.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Angua » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:38 pm UTC

If you remember back to when the fora was filtered into Nevisian dialect, it is common in many forms of Caribbean English as well.
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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:50 pm UTC

Angua wrote:If you remember back to when the fora was filtered into Nevisian dialect, it is common in many forms of Caribbean English as well.

I fink dat's weir da British ting could of cam from, cyattie!

(Or is you not a cyattie, but a dogheart babylon, amirite?)

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Re: Miscellaneous language questions

Postby Angua » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:46 pm UTC

We would say 'Me tink'. For reference the -> de, teeth - teet, thief -> tief Also, I don't know what 'cyattie' or 'dogheart bablyon' mean? Not my dialect.

I might have messed up which 'th' sound we were talking about.
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