Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:49 pm UTC

I hear that all the time! One of the Brooklyn-raised managers at work basically says "idear" (as well as "datar", like Star Trek-data + r). It was so strange to me at first.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:58 am UTC

/pi.ˈkɑn/
/aɪ.ˈdi.ə/ (three syllables)
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:09 am UTC

How do you pronounce "envelope"? I usually pronounce it /ɪnvəloʊp/, but occasionally will pronounce it /ɑnvəloʊp/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby measure » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:44 am UTC

Mega85 wrote:How do you pronounce "envelope"? I usually pronounce it /ɪnvəloʊp/, but occasionally will pronounce it /ɑnvəloʊp/.

/'ɛn.vɛ.loʊp/

I think. I've never entirely understood the schwa /ə/. I see it used in places where I would use all of /ɛ/, /ʌ/, and /ʊ/, so it seems very muddled and/or redundant.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:13 am UTC

That's because (in most English varieties) when unstressed those vowels can reduce to a central vowel and the original vowel is no longer phonetically clear . Some varieties (such as RP) actually have a couple of other reduced vowels as well as the schwa.

It's possible your variety of English is like, for example, Spanish and doesn't reduce unstressed vowels anywhere near this drastically but I suspect it's more likely that you are having difficulty analysing your own speech (which is always hard) and your knowledge of the underlying phoneme is getting in the way.

I pronounce envelope as you do but with the second vowel reduced down to a schwa
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby measure » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:16 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:That's because (in most English varieties) when unstressed those vowels can reduce to a central vowel and the original vowel is no longer phonetically clear . Some varieties (such as RP) actually have a couple of other reduced vowels as well as the schwa.

It's possible your variety of English is like, for example, Spanish and doesn't reduce unstressed vowels anywhere near this drastically but I suspect it's more likely that you are having difficulty analysing your own speech (which is always hard) and your knowledge of the underlying phoneme is getting in the way.

I pronounce envelope as you do but with the second vowel reduced down to a schwa

Is it possible to have a stressed schwa? Do any English words have it?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:19 pm UTC

The schwa for me is nearly identical phonetically to the STRUT vowel and I don't really perceive a difference between the two sounds. The schwa is an unstressed STRUT vowel to me.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:37 pm UTC

Some languages have stressed schwas but I don't think any native English words have it in any common variety (Pho is a loanword sometimes pronounced with a stressed schwa as in the original vietnamese).

Again, the lack of a perceived distinction there is almost certainly just perceived (unless you have either an unusual STRUT vowel or lack a true schwa). A true schwa is higher and/or more fronted than the common STRUT vowels.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:36 am UTC

The only time you can really have a stressed schwa in English is if you stress a monosyllabic word with a schwa (a normally unstressed word, like "the" or "a"). Most of these words have a non-schwa form that you can use when stressed, but you can stress them while using the schwa form as well.

Mega85 wrote:The schwa for me is nearly identical phonetically to the STRUT vowel and I don't really perceive a difference between the two sounds. The schwa is an unstressed STRUT vowel to me.

Same.

Mega85 wrote:How do you pronounce "envelope"? I usually pronounce it /ɪnvəloʊp/,

Same (pin-pen merger).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:54 am UTC

Does anyone pronounce the word "dude" as /djuːd/? I've heard older Southerners pronounce a /j/ in words like "due" and "dune", however the ones I've heard who do such don't use a /j/ in the word "dude".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:56 pm UTC

I speak fairly conservative RP (without much yodh-dropping, so I have a /j/ in due and dune) and don't have a yodh in dude. I suspect it's because the word was borrowed from New York english (which has extensive yodh-dropping).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:44 pm UTC

I say [dju:d] but I'm not a native speaker.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:34 am UTC

I heard someone today talking about "wear and tear" and he kept saying it like /hwɛɚ n tɛɚ/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:55 am UTC

A hypercorrection derived from "where," I assume?

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:15 am UTC

How do you pronounce "orangutan"? I pronounce it as though it were spelled "orangutang".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:13 am UTC

Yes, I've definitely always said it with a G on the end. Wikipedia says that it is actually the older spelling and pronunciation.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:28 am UTC

Is this still widespread / the most common pronunciation among native English speakers?
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Angua » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:19 am UTC

Pretty sure it's been said that way every time I've heard it. I certainly say it like that.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:18 pm UTC

I remember back in the day seeing the word written "orangutan" on the board at school by my teacher and I thought surely she spelled that wrong, because that's not how it sounds.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:55 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure I've only heard it with a final /ŋ/
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:10 pm UTC

I vaguely recall training myself to say it as it's spelled thinking that the /ŋ/ was an error at the time. The latter is certainly still more natural to my ear.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby flicky1991 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:18 pm UTC

I had a similar experience - I hear the "ng" pronunciation more but managed to convince myself it was a common mistake just from the spelling.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby measure » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:21 pm UTC

Question: Here in the US decimal numbers are written with a "decimal point" as e.g. 3.14, which is said out loud as "three point one four". I know that in some (many?) other countries decimals are written using a comma as 3,14. In this case how is the number said out loud? Is it just "three comma one four"? Is the comma called a "decimal comma"?

Just curious.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby jaap » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:24 pm UTC

measure wrote:Question: Here in the US decimal numbers are written with a "decimal point" as e.g. 3.14, which is said out loud as "three point one four". I know that in some (many?) other countries decimals are written using a comma as 3,14. In this case how is the number said out loud? Is it just "three comma one four"? Is the comma called a "decimal comma"?

Just curious.

In Dutch the answer is yes, to all of those. For example, "n cijfers achter de komma" is the phrase for 'n decimals of precision' (literally "n digits after the comma"). See this Dutch wiki page for examples.

The same is true in German, but there are quite a lot of countries that use the decimal comma, and I don't know about them.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:41 pm UTC

I can confirm that in French, the decimal point is read as virgule ("comma") rather than point. So 1,234 ("1.234") would be un virgule deux trois quatre ("one comma two three four") or un virgule deux cent trente-quatre ("one comma two hundred thirty-four").

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:45 pm UTC

measure wrote:Question: Here in the US decimal numbers are written with a "decimal point" as e.g. 3.14, which is said out loud as "three point one four". I know that in some (many?) other countries decimals are written using a comma as 3,14. In this case how is the number said out loud? Is it just "three comma one four"? Is the comma called a "decimal comma"?

Just curious.

In German we say 3 Komma 1 4. We don't call it Dezimalkomma, just Komma. The number is called a Dezimalzahl = decimal number though.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Grop » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:47 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I can confirm that in French, the decimal point is read as virgule ("comma") rather than point. So 1,234 ("1.234") would be un virgule deux trois quatre ("one comma two three four") or un virgule deux cent trente-quatre ("one comma two hundred thirty-four").


I think we are much more likely to say deux cent trente-quatre than deux trois quatre. Likewise 3,14 would be trois virgule quatorze, not trois virgule un quatre. Things may become more irregular with more than three decimal digits (which doesn't happen as much in real life).

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:08 pm UTC

Pronouncing "orangutan" with an "ng" on the end changes how the "a" sounds from how it would sound if I pronounce it with /n/.

"orangutan" = [əɹeɪŋəteɪŋ] whereas if I pronounced it with /n/ at the end it would be [əɹeɪŋətɛən].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Grop » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:23 pm UTC

I expected people to say tan in orangutan [tən], like I understand they do with Satan. Not a native speaker, but I can't see how someone would hesitate between [teɪŋ] and [tɛən].

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:59 pm UTC

Grop wrote:I expected people to say tan in orangutan [tən], like I understand they do with Satan. Not a native speaker, but I can't see how someone would hesitate between [teɪŋ] and [tɛən].
The last syllable of orangutan uses a full, unreduced vowel, not a schwa, in all pronunciations I'm aware of, so the range of vowels is the same as in a stressed syllable. The main difference is in whether the word is pronounced as spelled, with an /n/ sound at the end (also truer to the etymology, orang hutan), or whether it's pronounced with an /ŋ/ sound at the end, as if it were spelled orangutang (which is how many people actually pronounce it, and which would make the two halves of the word rhyme).
However, at least in some dialects, not all vowels can come before /ŋ/; in particular, /æŋ/ and /eɪŋ/ generally aren't distinct, so some dialects use /eɪŋ/ for both (I assume Mega85 also pronounces the word tang as [teɪŋ], and similarly with sang, rang, bang, etc.). Also, [ɛə] is a possible pronunciation of the short a (/æ/) sound in North American English, especially before /m/ and /n/, so [tɛən] is most likely how Mega85 pronounces the word tan. (Or, in other words, the question is whether the last syllable is pronounced like the word tan or the word tang, and in many dialects these have different vowels.)
In my dialect, I pronounce orangutan as /ə.ˈɹæɪŋ.ə.ˌtæɪŋ/, where /æɪ/ is a sound in between /eɪ/ and /æ/ that occurs in my dialect only before /ɡ/ and /ŋ/. If I pronounced it as spelled, I'd say /ə.ˈɹæɪŋ.ə.ˌtæn/, which has the more normal /æ/ sound (though I think it's very slightly different than in, say, trap).
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Grop » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:55 pm UTC

Oh, that last syllabic is stressed as opposed to -tan in Satan which is unstressed. I always forget that thing about English. Thanks for your explanation.

Edit: What a difficult word.
Last edited by Grop on Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:17 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:59 pm UTC

Grop wrote:Oh, that last syllabic is stressed as opposed to -tan in Satan which is unstressed. I always forget that thing about English. Thanks for your explanation.
...kind of? I think there might be some disagreement on whether syllables like that have secondary stress, but the important part is that it's unreduced, so for the purpose of what the vowel is, it acts like a stressed syllable.
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Mega85 » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:20 pm UTC

Do you pronounce "than" the same as "then"? I pronounce "than" like "then" in ordinary speech. When I say "Less Than Jake" it sounds like "Less Then Jake".

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:49 pm UTC

Both frequently reduce in quick speech but I think I have a schwi /ɪ̈/ in then rather than the schwa /ə/ in than
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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:37 pm UTC

Typically I pronounce them the same because they are almost always reduced. But if stressed, I pronounce "than" as /ðæn/.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby pogrmman » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:04 am UTC

I pronounce them the same in quick speech, but if I'm carefully annunciating (like giving a speech), I pronounce them differently. "Then" has more of a schwa sound, and "than" has a much less reduced sound.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:27 pm UTC

Derek wrote:Typically I pronounce them the same because they are almost always reduced. But if stressed, I pronounce "than" as /ðæn/.


Much the same for me. (As an aside, my /æ/ (as in stressed "than") is diphthongized before /n/ and /m/, and I've never been quite sure how to transcribe it. I don't think it's quite [eə], but I don't think it's quite [ɛə] either. I know that others here also have a different realization of /æ/ before nasals. How would you transcribe your pronunciation?)

A separate question: I'm curious as to how people pronounce "Newfoundland". I had always pronounced it with stress on the first syllable, and with the vowels in both the second and third syllables reduced (similar to "Northumberland" or "Cumberland"). But in Canada, I hear everyone pronouncing it with a secondary stress on the last syllable, and an unreduced vowel.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:55 pm UTC

Aiwendil wrote:
A separate question: I'm curious as to how people pronounce "Newfoundland". I had always pronounced it with stress on the first syllable, and with the vowels in both the second and third syllables reduced (similar to "Northumberland" or "Cumberland"). But in Canada, I hear everyone pronouncing it with a secondary stress on the last syllable, and an unreduced vowel.


My experience has been the same. Definitely a north/south divide on that. My wife's family in MN (twin-cities area now but grew up in Duluth) put a secondary stress on the last syllable. I'm from Missouri (live in Kansas now) and reduce the third syllable.

A separate thing: it has always irritated me since moving to Kansas that native Kansans' pronounce Arkansas River as 'ar-KAN-sas' river and not 'ark-an-saw.' Though they still say 'ark-an-saw' when talking about the state so as to differentiate themselves in a holier-than-thou way from Arkansas. After living here for 7 years I find it hard not to pronounce it the way they do though, as irritating as it may be.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby New User » Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:23 am UTC

I never heard of anyone pronounce creek like "crick" until I was an adult. It took me a long time to realize it was meant to be the same word. But, apparently, in some regions they think it sounds laughable to pronounce it like it's spelled, which is how everyone says it around here.

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Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:54 pm UTC

New User wrote:I never heard of anyone pronounce creek like "crick" until I was an adult. It took me a long time to realize it was meant to be the same word. But, apparently, in some regions they think it sounds laughable to pronounce it like it's spelled, which is how everyone says it around here.


The high school programming teacher was from Tennessee. He said Crick and were-ter (water). Just shows anyone can go into the compsci field, He had an interesting past and future. He eventually got fired for sexual harassment I think. If IRC, he played the "Everybodys had more sex than me" rabbit song from newgrounds on the projector whenever one of our friends (atypical aloof nerd) would walk into the class. He didn't get fired for that, but if he was fine doing that I'm sure he did worse things later.


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