Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

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legion
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Postby legion » Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:40 am UTC

So you're saying that LotR directly influenced every piece of fantasy literature to come after it?

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. There was plenty of fantasy before Tolkien, and plenty of fantasy after him that doesn't have anything to do with his magnum opus.

Granted, LotR has had a huge impact on the fantasy genre, but to claim that it has been a direct influence on everything to come after it is absurd.

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Postby Belial » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:37 pm UTC

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. There was plenty of fantasy before Tolkien,


Not...really. He kindof pioneered the genre. Before tolkien, there was....mythology.

Unless I'm mistaken. I'd *love* to hear that I'm mistaken, because I really don't like Tolkien all that much, but I have to give him proper respect for kickstarting the whole thing,...
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Postby Easton » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:58 pm UTC

We may never know how the series was meant to finish (unless his wife and cousin actually do finish it with his notes), as Robert Jordan has passed away.

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2007 ... ml?ref=rss

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Postby Belial » Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:59 pm UTC

Thank you for that News Flash.
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Postby Princess Marzipan » Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:53 pm UTC

Hay, I herd there wuz news?

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Postby legion » Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:56 am UTC

Not...really. He kindof pioneered the genre. Before tolkien, there was....mythology.

Unless I'm mistaken. I'd *love* to hear that I'm mistaken, because I really don't like Tolkien all that much, but I have to give him proper respect for kickstarting the whole thing,...


There's George MacDonald, who wrote The Princess and the Goblin and Phantastes (regarded as the first fantasy novel for 'adults', by some).

Sir Henry Rider Haggard, Rudyard Kipling and Edgar Rice Burroughs...

Edward Plunkett, better known as Lord Dunsany, is who I would give the credit of starting this obsession with fantasy literature we know and love.

That's just a short list. Head to your local library and ask around, maybe they have a better list than I do, but I stand by my earlier claim.

So there you go! Corrected, I hope! Enjoy!

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Postby dumbclown » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:42 pm UTC

Pathway wrote:Sorry, it's true. Just because you somehow don't recognize the massive influence of Tolkien's work doesn't mean it isn't one of the most widely read, widely imitated fantasy works in history.


I'm going to have to go with Merlin on this one. You can't say that something is one of the most imitated works in history when it is an imitation of Merlin.

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Postby blob » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:15 pm UTC

Also, take a gander at the modern fantasy which inspired Tokien. (Bottom of the page; the rest is sagas and myths.)
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Postby Aperfectring » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:01 pm UTC

Tolkien based most of his writing on mythology from various cultures. Some of what has come after has been based on similar mythology, some off of Tolkien himself. Remember that most cultures from the western world have similarities in mythology, and most if not all fantasy to which I have been exposed has been influenced from the western world.

Back on topic: The furthest I made it through was to somewhere around book 8. I honestly don't remember anymore. The books were very detailed, and IMO quite well written. However, I generally read to relax my mind (usually before I go to sleep), not to try and wrap my head around the millions of intricacies of the story. I don't usually have time to read other than the 30 mins or so before I fall asleep, so complexities of stories are lost on me. Does this mean that I am missing out on some great series, yes. Does this upset me, yes. Will my reading habits change so I can take in such complex stories, probably not.
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Postby Dan Frank » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:38 am UTC

Belial wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. There was plenty of fantasy before Tolkien,


Not...really. He kindof pioneered the genre. Before tolkien, there was....mythology.

Unless I'm mistaken. I'd *love* to hear that I'm mistaken, because I really don't like Tolkien all that much, but I have to give him proper respect for kickstarting the whole thing,...


Legion gave some answers. But the one that most readily springs to mind to my mind would be Fritz Leiber. Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser are classic sword and sorcery fantasy. I did a quick double-check on Wiki, and the first Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser stories came out a decade before LOTR. (incidentally, Wikipedia claims Leiber coined the phrase "sword and sorcery")

So no, I don't think Tolkien started the genre. But what he did do was wildly popularize it in the 60's. And that is what kickstarted fantasty as a major, popular, marketable genre.

Also, hi. I've been lurking for a few months, and I finally found something that I just had to chime in on.

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Postby Belial » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:26 pm UTC

Awesome. I totally wanted to be wrong about that.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby mrmanme » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:44 am UTC

Bad as the writing and characters were, I still enjoyed reading WoT. As others have said, he really constructed a great world, I'd say in more detail than Tolkien did. The simple fact that beggars in Ebou Dar actually have to belong to the appropriate Guild to go around soliciting is just one example of how real that world feels. A great time-sink.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Victorkm » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:02 pm UTC

mrmanme wrote:Bad as the writing and characters were, I still enjoyed reading WoT. As others have said, he really constructed a great world, I'd say in more detail than Tolkien did. The simple fact that beggars in Ebou Dar actually have to belong to the appropriate Guild to go around soliciting is just one example of how real that world feels. A great time-sink.


So do the beggars in Ankh-Morpork in Discworld. They even have high ranking beggers who beg from rich folk exclusively. "Spare a diamond ring?" "Spare 100 dollars for a night at the Waldorf?"

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby blob » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:27 pm UTC

Victorkm wrote:
mrmanme wrote:Bad as the writing and characters were, I still enjoyed reading WoT. As others have said, he really constructed a great world, I'd say in more detail than Tolkien did. The simple fact that beggars in Ebou Dar actually have to belong to the appropriate Guild to go around soliciting is just one example of how real that world feels. A great time-sink.


So do the beggars in Ankh-Morpork in Discworld. They even have high ranking beggers who beg from rich folk exclusively. "Spare a diamond ring?" "Spare 100 dollars for a night at the Waldorf?"


Not to mention the beggars who can beg from the Beggars Guild and come out richer.

But seriously, it's unfair to compare other writers to Pratchett...
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby caliwriter » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:23 pm UTC

This is simply the best fantasy series I have ever read. The world created is so fleshed out that I feel that it could be just on the other side of the world. (And who knows, Middle Earth is off the coast of Australia.) This is the series that really got me into reading. All the best and my condolences go to his family and friend and the world of Fantasy who have lost a great husband, friend, and creator.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby FoS » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:39 am UTC

mrmanme wrote:Bad as the writing and characters were, I still enjoyed reading WoT. As others have said, he really constructed a great world, I'd say in more detail than Tolkien did. The simple fact that beggars in Ebou Dar actually have to belong to the appropriate Guild to go around soliciting is just one example of how real that world feels. A great time-sink.


Jordan may have constructed an interesting world but it's by no means as details as Middle-earth. The background text that Tolkien wrote alone beggars the entire WoT series for depth.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby william » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:55 am UTC

Wheel of Time was originally supposed to be a trilogy.

Eleven books later the author died.

So there you have it.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby blob » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:04 pm UTC

william wrote:Wheel of Time was originally supposed to be a trilogy.

Most fantasy/sci fi writers seem to like writing trilogies. Some just don't know when to stop.

Robin Hobb is probably an exception - she's written plenty of books on the same characters, but they're carefully divided into sets of three.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby fjafjan » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:03 pm UTC

the series that changed my life incredibly due to the people and fora i joined due to it.

Then the fucker went and died before he completed it.
So close too. if he had died in book 6 atleast it wouldn't have been close. gah.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Alisto » Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:58 pm UTC

They've chosen an author to write the final book. Brandon Sanderson.

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=326

Personally, I like the choice. Sanderson is a new author, but he's very good. I actually recommended his books in one of the "recommend a book" threads.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Elenion » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:13 pm UTC

I really like the books, I like how detailed they are, and how many stories there are running at the same time, and how everything sorta... mixes together:) But to keep track of all the persons is...impossible:P I'm on book 10 atm, but I've only read one chapter then I decided to take a break and read some other books (like his dark materials) before I read 10 and 11 later.. :) So far I liked all the books, but I don't like Rand much.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby CorporalClegg » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:53 am UTC

Ah man, I loved this books so much. For about a year all I did was read them, one after another, every day after school.

At first I hated Rand too, but around book 5 or 6 he became such a fucking badass after
Spoiler:
he learned to channel properly
and I kinda warmed up to him.

Also, speculative question:
Spoiler:
Mazrim Taim is really Demandred, right?

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Elenion » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:34 am UTC

I'm not sure, but there's definatly something fishy about him.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby niende » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:51 pm UTC

Rand: I liked him better before he went badass. He's too much with the "feather, mountain, duty" stuff now..

About the speculative question: No way.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Otis » Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:29 am UTC

Ok, I want to hear peoples opinions on Asmodean.
Spoiler:
There's no way it could've been Lanfear that offed him because, not even two chapters prior, she went tumbling into the red doorway with Moiraine. I personally think it's one of the other Forsaken but I haven't the foggiest idea of which one. Anybody else have a better solution?

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby JayDee » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:37 am UTC

FoS wrote:Jordan may have constructed an interesting world but it's by no means as details as Middle-earth. The background text that Tolkien wrote alone beggars the entire WoT series for depth.
I'd say it depends how you measure it. From what I've read, the notes that Jordan had are copious and detailed. Tolkien was mythologically and linguistically deep, but in the mundane details of world building (things like economics and customs and all that) Jordan is far more detailed.
CorporalClegg wrote:Also, speculative question:
Spoiler:
Mazrim Taim is really Demandred, right?
I love the discussions of Jordan. On this spoilered one, a theory is that that was the case, but RJ changed it after he found out people had it figured.
Spoiler:
Scenes in Winters Heart, iirc, make clear that Taim and Demandred are not the same person - they both give orders to certain darkfriends independently.
And Asmodean? That question makes me think 'Who is Tom Bombadil' - read the WOTFAQ about all the different theories and why they're all wrong.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Masuri » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:59 am UTC

Wow.

I had never heard of WOTFAQ. I went to read that link to theories on the murder of Asmodean and... wow. Those people need to get up, log out, and go outside. Right now. Because damn.

I had no idea that people obsessed over this to the point where they use sweet little pet names to refer to the Forsaken. Moggy? WTF? Then, they tabloidize the whole Demandred/Mazrim Taim into... Taimandred? No, no. A thousand times no!

I've reread the whole series each time a new book comes out because that's a LOT of info to keep track of. I'd say I'm pretty familiar with it by now. But, clearly, I am only an egg.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Alisto » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:28 am UTC

It's not obsession; it's analysis. And the "pet names" are abbreviations. It's way easier to write "Moggy" than "Moghedian" during discussions. And the Taimandred thing predates any tabloid name-combining.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Masuri » Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:38 am UTC

If you say so. ;)

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby niende » Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:47 am UTC

I have to agree with Alisto. I know cause I used to be part of those forums and one of those guys.
"Oh, WoTA. WoTA. where are you WoTA?!"

Anyway, the whole Taimandred, Moggy, Asmo, Lanni style is as ancient as calling Jordan RJ.

Incidentally, on Sanderson's blog (the guy who was commissioned to finish book 12 [Memory of Light]) he says that it is revealed in the last book who killed Asmo. I'm not sure I'd rather be left guessing..
The whole debate thing is way more fun than being told what the facts are.

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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Alisto » Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:42 pm UTC

Yeah, he said he's going to make sure it's in there. While I agree that some mystery in the books is a good thing (and there are plenty of things that will never get revealed), Jordan thought that he made it obvious who killed Asmodean. So we're supposed to know, we're just too stupid to figure it out.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby JayDee » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:48 am UTC

Masuri wrote:I had never heard of WOTFAQ. I went to read that link to theories on the murder of Asmodean and... wow. Those people need to get up, log out, and go outside. Right now. Because damn.
To be fair the FAQ itself is based on compiling years of discussion on forums and usenet and such. By lots of people.
niende wrote:Incidentally, on Sanderson's blog (the guy who was commissioned to finish book 12 [Memory of Light]) he says that it is revealed in the last book who killed Asmo. I'm not sure I'd rather be left guessing..
I read him saying he wanted to put it in. And I laughed and laughed, because I fully expect RJ didn't tell anyone or write it down, since it was so 'obvious'.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Alisto » Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:57 am UTC

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/590/Merry-Christmas!--New-FAQ! wrote:Q: Are you going to tell us who killed Asmodean?

A: Mr. Jordan's books are particularly special in that they don't always tie up every loose end, but instead leave some things for the reader to imagine and decide for themselves. Originally, as I understand it, Mr. Jordan was not intending to ever reveal Asmodean's killer, as he believed that the books were explicit enough for one to figure it out on one's own.

However, as the years progressed, Mr. Jordan evidently grew to understand just how much this question was bothering his readers. Recently, he had promised that he would--indeed--find a way to explain Asmodean's death in AMoL. He left behind notes regarding this mystery, and Harriet and I have determined a place in the book where we feel it would work to answer this question. So, yes, I will tell you who killed Asmodean.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby JayDee » Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:04 am UTC

Ah. Fair enough then. I'd only read the statement and interview from when he was announced as the writer.

It wouldn't be hard to put in the book, really. Could be a throw away line in any section written from a forsaken POV, or whatever.
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Re:

Postby Charlie! » Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:36 am UTC

Belial wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. There was plenty of fantasy before Tolkien,


Not...really. He kindof pioneered the genre. Before tolkien, there was....mythology.

Unless I'm mistaken. I'd *love* to hear that I'm mistaken, because I really don't like Tolkien all that much, but I have to give him proper respect for kickstarting the whole thing,...


In addition to other things mentioned, there was hella Gormenghast (a series). Really, tolkien was one of a number of authors in a growing british fantasy scene. He just did it very well, especially by the standards of the day.

And going back, we can see influences and predecessors in Jules Verne and Waughner (fantasy stories with plots adapted from legends) to Homer, and in another way in travel fiction such as Robert Louis Stephenson's and some other stuff that was popular at the time.


EDIT: ooh, and was George MacDonald mentioned? He's pretty good.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Spacemilk » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:55 pm UTC

The new book is out in hardcover. Damn these publishers for not putting in the Kindle version immediately... how friggin hard can it be!

Anyway, apparently this is not the last book (BIG SURPRISE THERE, MR. "MILK THIS CASH COW EVEN THOUGH I'M DEAD" JORDAN), in fact it's not even the second-to-last book, as the last book is being split into THREE PIECES (my god I'm going to overuse caps in my anger) since it's so long. At least there is an end in sight, if only because RJ is dead.

On "The Gathering Storm": Apparently it's far better than the last 3 books, especially when it comes to the pacing. Or at least that's how the reviews make it sound - there aren't too many so far but they all seem to draw the same picture. Sadly several of the reviews agree that the Perrin/Faile storyline is rather boring and sparse in this book; after Mat's storyline, the Perrin/Faile one is my favorite.

Here's Amazon's (spoiler'd) description of the book:
Spoiler:
Tarmon Gai’don, the Last Battle, looms. And mankind is not ready.

The final volume of the Wheel of Time, A Memory of Light, was partially written by Robert Jordan before his untimely passing in 2007. Brandon Sanderson, New York Times bestselling author of the Mistborn books, was chosen by Jordan’s editor---his wife, Harriet McDougal---to complete the final book. The scope and size of the volume was such that it could not be contained in a single book, and so Tor proudly presents The Gathering Storm as the first of three novels that will make up A Memory of Light. This short sequence will complete the struggle against the Shadow, bringing to a close a journey begun almost twenty years ago and marking the conclusion of the Wheel of Time, the preeminent fantasy epic of our era.

In this epic novel, Robert Jordan’s international bestselling series begins its dramatic conclusion. Rand al’Thor, the Dragon Reborn, struggles to unite a fractured network of kingdoms and alliances in preparation for the Last Battle. As he attempts to halt the Seanchan encroachment northward---wishing he could form at least a temporary truce with the invaders---his allies watch in terror the shadow that seems to be growing within the heart of the Dragon Reborn himself.

Egwene al’Vere, the Amyrlin Seat of the rebel Aes Sedai, is a captive of the White Tower and subject to the whims of their tyrannical leader. As days tick toward the Seanchan attack she knows is imminent, Egwene works to hold together the disparate factions of Aes Sedai while providing leadership in the face of increasing uncertainty and despair. Her fight will prove the mettle of the Aes Sedai, and her conflict will decide the future of the White Tower---and possibly the world itself.

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the Shadow.


Also here is a hilarious review from the Amazon site:
Spoiler:
The Wheel of Time series is on a level above most fantasy series. I would say it is comparable to the trilogy in quality and perhaps a little more mature in range.
This series is really a classic to be, but the reader can't be lazy.
You have to have an idea of the preceeding books to even have some idea of what is going on. There is a great amount of scope in plot and characters to take in. I don't believe the writing to be as good as RJ, but as it does follow the expected story, you can get something out of this book.
I do note a bit of amatuerish repetition in the first few pages. "The Wind.....
did this , The wind did that.... . I counted at least 10 sentences that begin that way. Having said that , I am looking forward to the next book.

So he starts out saying you have to have an idea of what's in the previous books... and then promptly proves he hasn't taken his own advice when he fails to recognize the formulaic beginning that's been at the start of EVERY BOOK IN THIS SERIES.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby Jessica » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:17 pm UTC

I picked this up as a "I need more books for free shipping" book on amazon.
I'm looking forward to reading it, but upon opening it and reading the prologue I realized that it's been far too long since I read the other books, and have only a vague recollection of what happened in the series, let alone the last book. which is kind of annoying. As I don't want to read them again. I might try and just read a recap of the last book.

But, I read the explanation for more than 1 book by the new writer, and I accept his reasoning.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby pseudoidiot » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:55 pm UTC

I had pretty good timing for discovering Brandon Sanderson. I knew someone I'd never heard of was slotted to finish the series, and this summer I found out who it was. I decided to read his Mistborn trilogy which I really, really enjoyed. Then, knowing the next WoT book would be released soon I decided to go ahead and reread the series. I'm about 3/4 way through book 11, so I timed that pretty good. I'm really excited to see what Brandon Sanderson does to finish up the series.

Something I read somewhere was talking about pacing and how Brandon is focusing a lot more on moving the plot along, which is great. I really enjoyed Robert Jordan's writing, but I do have to say sometimes I just wanted to yell at him to get things moving a long instead of giving me descriptions of 12 different tapestries that are in the room.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby nsmjohn » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:34 pm UTC

I haven't read books 10 & 11 in a while, but the rest of the series I have read through 4 times... The most recent reading last fall (a book a week). I am really looking forward to reading the Gathering Storm; it has been too long since a new WoT book has been out.
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Re: Wheel of Time (Split from Geeky/Nerdy Kids Books)

Postby kandalf » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:36 am UTC

I'm working on my ~2.5 full read of the series. I dunno if I can match a book a week tho (I could, but my grades would prolly suffer). We'll see if I get fed up and just skip to Gathering Storm or not :p. I'm planning on skipping book 10 regardless...


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