A Song of Ice and Fire

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Yakk » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:14 am UTC

Anyone have a central index of the 'leaked' chapters from the next book?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adacore » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:23 am UTC

If anyone has a way to read the Tyrion chapter that's available on the ASoIaF app, that would be nice, too. The app isn't available in my region, so I've not been able to read it.

This blog post appears to give a fairly good run-down of the chapters from The Winds of Winter released / read at conventions so far, with links where available. Note that the blog post itself is spoiler-heavy, for all books and (obviously) unpublished future material, so if you just want to see what chapters are available without being spoiled on the plot points they contain, be careful.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:01 am UTC

Adacore wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:As an aside, is it a spoiler to talk about the actual War of the Roses? Because Tyrion is based on Richard III, and, well, not everyone knows how that ended.

I would actually love for someone to break down the history of the War of the Roses and the counterparts to people and/or stuff that happened to people/stuff in ASoIaF. I know the series is 'based on' that period of history, but I have no idea how close the parallels are. Probably would be best to spoiler that kind of analysis, though.


Here is the short version. Celts (first men) settle the British Isles. Roman era, Rome conquers England and Wales (Westeros), and leaves Ireland (Iron Islands) and Scotland (beyond the wall), in part because the farmland wasn't particularly useful. They build Hadrian's Wall (The Wall) to prevent the wildlings Scottish from raping and pillaging. Rome collapses, local officials become feudal lords, etc etc, but the Anglo-Saxons (Andals) conquer the region and establish Christianity (The Seven) in the region. 1066, Britain is invaded by dragonriders William the Conquerer. Couple hundred years later, the Hundred Years War breaks out over who gets to control France, a segment of that war is the War of the Roses (the current time of the books) which pits House York (Stark) against Lancaster (Lannister). A lot of propaganda distorts history, it's not quite clear whether Richard III (Tyrion, though Richard was York) has his niece and nephew (the rightful heirs) murdered, but he finds himself king. The peasants love him for things like "bail" and "taxing the rich instead", but the nobles hate him for the same reasons. Battle occurs, and Richard III is betrayed by some of his bannermen. Thus ends his rule. Somewhere in there is the Black Dinner (Red Wedding).

I think I got most of it.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:They build Hadrian's Wall (The Wall) to prevent the wildlings Scottish from raping and pillaging.


Actually, no-one really knows why Hadrian had the wall built - raping and pillaging (prevention of) is one theory, but doing it for tax and customs is another, which makes better economic and military sense...

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adam H » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:28 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
Cersei will probably die in TWoW. I suspect she may be rejuvenated/crazified further as she comes to believe that Pycelle/Kevan were murdered by Tyrion. If Maggy the Frog prophecy is true, though, she will probably outlive both Tommen and Myrcella. The way events are current going, that's likely to come about in Dornish/Aegon invasion of King's Landing.
Spoiler:
One theory I read that makes a ton of sense is that Tommen will die and be raised as a wight and kill Cersei. When you look at the entire prophecy, it seems pretty obvious that valonqar refers to Tommen because she is talking about Cersei's three children when she says it. Course, just because it's obvious doesn't mean there's anything to it.
"Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, and when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."


If there's anything to that, it means that she'll have to live until the white walkers reach Cersei/Tommen. Wherever they end up. Seems doubtful that they start travelling north, but who knows.
-Adam

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:16 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
Cersei will probably die in TWoW. I suspect she may be rejuvenated/crazified further as she comes to believe that Pycelle/Kevan were murdered by Tyrion. If Maggy the Frog prophecy is true, though, she will probably outlive both Tommen and Myrcella. The way events are current going, that's likely to come about in Dornish/Aegon invasion of King's Landing.


Spoiler:
One theory I read that makes a ton of sense is that Tommen will die and be raised as a wight and kill Cersei. When you look at the entire prophecy, it seems pretty obvious that valonqar refers to Tommen because she is talking about Cersei's three children when she says it. Course, just because it's obvious doesn't mean there's anything to it.

"Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, and when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."


If there's anything to that, it means that she'll have to live until the white walkers reach Cersei/Tommen. Wherever they end up. Seems doubtful that they start travelling north, but who knows.


I had assumed that
Spoiler:
the valonqar is Jaime, who is, I believe, technically born after Cersei. The word means "little brother", so translating it as "son" would seem a bit odd to me.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adam H » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:56 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Adam H wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Spoiler:
Cersei will probably die in TWoW. I suspect she may be rejuvenated/crazified further as she comes to believe that Pycelle/Kevan were murdered by Tyrion. If Maggy the Frog prophecy is true, though, she will probably outlive both Tommen and Myrcella. The way events are current going, that's likely to come about in Dornish/Aegon invasion of King's Landing.


Spoiler:
One theory I read that makes a ton of sense is that Tommen will die and be raised as a wight and kill Cersei. When you look at the entire prophecy, it seems pretty obvious that valonqar refers to Tommen because she is talking about Cersei's three children when she says it. Course, just because it's obvious doesn't mean there's anything to it.

"Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds, and when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."


If there's anything to that, it means that she'll have to live until the white walkers reach Cersei/Tommen. Wherever they end up. Seems doubtful that they start travelling north, but who knows.


I had assumed that
Spoiler:
the valonqar is Jaime, who is, I believe, technically born after Cersei. The word means "little brother", so translating it as "son" would seem a bit odd to me.

Spoiler:
Yeah, but it's "the valonqar" and not "your valonqar". I'm not translating it as "son", I'm translating it: "You will have three children, and they will die, and then the youngest brother will kill you." In that context, does Jaime or Tyrion really fit better than Tommen?

The twin thing is a bit cliche IMO. I'm of course not sure of anything, but I'm definitely rooting for unTommen. :)

Oh yeah, and QYBURN. Can't believe I just thought of that. The white walkers don't have to reach King's Landing, Cersei just has to ask Qyburn to raise Tommen from the dead, and of course that's what she would do.
-Adam

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:53 am UTC

In response to the above:

Spoiler:
What about the cleganebowl theory where the valonqar is the hound (or whatever he's calling himself after he gets better and joins the church militant). The white throat then is a reference to robert strong (totes the mountain). As the cleganebowl's cersei's trial, the hound beating robert strong is the same as him killing her.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:55 am UTC

Adam H wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah, but it's "the valonqar" and not "your valonqar". I'm not translating it as "son", I'm translating it: "You will have three children, and they will die, and then the youngest brother will kill you." In that context, does Jaime or Tyrion really fit better than Tommen?

The twin thing is a bit cliche IMO. I'm of course not sure of anything, but I'm definitely rooting for unTommen. :)

Oh yeah, and QYBURN. Can't believe I just thought of that. The white walkers don't have to reach King's Landing, Cersei just has to ask Qyburn to raise Tommen from the dead, and of course that's what she would do.


By the same reasoning, it could be Bran or Rickon.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jun 28, 2014 8:58 pm UTC

Westeros follows a "might makes right" rule for who gets the throne. Oh, they SAY they don't, but one of the major themes is that the nobles are nothing more than schoolyard bullies that men with swords fight for.

A man with a sword is locked in a room with a rich man, a king, and a priest; who lives and who dies? Whoever the man with a sword chooses...

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Jave D » Sun Jun 29, 2014 6:40 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:A man with a sword is locked in a room with a rich man, a king, and a priest; who lives and who dies? Whoever the man with a sword chooses...


I say the only one with real power is whoever managed to lock these four people up in a room.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:00 am UTC

...

Yeah, that's a much better answer to the riddle. The King is the various kings. The Priest is the Red Priests and the Septons. The Rich Man is the Iron Bank and the Masters of the Free Cities. The Man with a Sword is the knights and mercenaries. But the guy locking them in the room in the first place? That's (very minor spoiler but just in case)
Spoiler:
Petyr and Varys and who knows who else...

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Jave D » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:46 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:...

Yeah, that's a much better answer to the riddle. The King is the various kings. The Priest is the Red Priests and the Septons. The Rich Man is the Iron Bank and the Masters of the Free Cities. The Man with a Sword is the knights and mercenaries. But the guy locking them in the room in the first place? That's


G.R.R. Martin, that's who!

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adam H » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Adam H wrote:
Spoiler:
Yeah, but it's "the valonqar" and not "your valonqar". I'm not translating it as "son", I'm translating it: "You will have three children, and they will die, and then the youngest brother will kill you." In that context, does Jaime or Tyrion really fit better than Tommen?

The twin thing is a bit cliche IMO. I'm of course not sure of anything, but I'm definitely rooting for unTommen. :)

Oh yeah, and QYBURN. Can't believe I just thought of that. The white walkers don't have to reach King's Landing, Cersei just has to ask Qyburn to raise Tommen from the dead, and of course that's what she would do.


By the same reasoning, it could be Bran or Rickon.

No... Only if the prophecy was made to Catelyn...
-Adam

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adacore » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:59 pm UTC

Book 2:
Spoiler:
I need to reread Dany's visions in the House of the Undying and actually think about what every word and sentence means. I kinda skimmed it the first time through, but the more I think about it, the more I think that GRRM probably put an awful lot of time, thought and effort into getting every single word of that passage exactly right, so it's all probably extremely meaningful.

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A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby Celdir » Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:09 pm UTC

What are some creative or funny theories that people have about A Song of Ice and Fire?

I'll start with a (non-serious) theory about how events will unfold with the Iron Bank of Braavos:

Spoiler:
After several years of incompetence in King's Landing, the Iron Bank will no longer be willing to wait for their payments. The Braavosi will covertly send a fleet of warships to King's Landing. At night, while the city sleeps, they will sail up the river and invade the city. After killing the soldiers and anyone who would put up a fight, they begin dismantling the Red Keep block by block and loading it onto their ships. And then back to Braavos! Castles work great as collateral.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

Can we assume that this is an at-your-own risk thread and spoiler tags aren't needed?
Fucking no. Use spoiler tags. -ST
About the Iron Bank,
Spoiler:
I doubt that a full-scale assault by them is likely. They're backing Stannis already, but if they need to do more, I see them using Faceless Men (Arya?) or something more of that nature rather than direct force.


My other favourite semi-serious theory is
Spoiler:
that I think Dany is going to end up joining the cult of R'hllor and turning evil, and will need to be killed by Jon and Bran, with the help of the White Walkers, to end her reign of terror and return peace, such as it is after the dragons have killed nearly everyone in the south, to the land.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby Celdir » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:04 pm UTC

Yes, this thread is going to contain spoilers. :)

I know that the Iron Bank would never do something so rash, I just thought that the idea was humorous.

Spoiler:
I'm not so sure about Dany. I can can see her joining the cult, but I can't see her turning evil. Also, from what we've seen of the Others, I don't think that they would stop killing after Dany and the dragons were dead. They don't really seem like the most tame bunch to me. XD

I wonder what Melisandre's motives are. Why would she give the fake sword to Stannis? Surely she knows.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:09 pm UTC

Might be off topic, but I must confess some annoyance that I recently worked out the "R+L=J" theory on my own. And then, just as I was congratulating myself for being clever, I discovered the entire internet has been buzzing about it for weeks. *head-desk*

P.S. My book reading hasn't caught up to the show yet, so I'm going to be approaching this thread with some trepidation.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby Jave D » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:44 am UTC

My pet theory is that Jon Snow's real mother is Ygritte. OEDIPUS TWIST FTW!

Or okay, as for what will happen. Dany will win in Meereen, gather all kinds of powerful forces, and finally cross the sea to take back the Iron Throne. But then she steps on a shaky rock, twists her ankle and falls, breaking her neck and dying. The end!

But my favorite theory is about Robert Strong. Pretty sure he's a frankenstein monster, made from Jaime's severed hand, Ned's decapitated head, and Theon's penis.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:48 am UTC

At this point, I don't even really treat R+L=J as a theory any more, just as a fact.

So, the theory I'm most excited for is the cleganebowl theory.

That Robert Strong is the mountain is fairly established (or, well, if the above is right, most of him is) and he's going to be Cersei's champion at her trial. The church is also then going to choose a champion from the warrior's sons.

Sandor meanwhile is "dead" offpage in the riverlands having met the elder brother of the quiet isle. Pretty sure he's not dead because, well, GRRM isn't big on killing people offpage, particularly when there are people who know how to heal so nearby; the elder brother is also pretty evasive about whether Sandor's dead.

Sandor being taken in as a novice seems most plausible and, with the refounding of the warrior's sons, it's plausible too that he might end up pledging them his sword (although doing so would mean accepting knighthood). We know Sandor is one of the best warriors in the seven kingdoms so him becoming the faith's champion should he join the warrior's sons seems likely.

This means we have the two brothers facing each other in a trial for Cersei's life and, should the younger brother win, Cersei's life will be forfeit, potentially by hanging which would make Margaery the only remaining queen. Sound familiar? It's an awful lot like the Valonqar prophecy if you're willing to be a little metaphorical with it (as seems appropriate for a prophecy).

The tragic mistake of getting the wrong valonqar would then be a great way to end off Cersei's character and humanise her descent into madness the last few books.

The main issue with this is that Maggy's prophecy seems to implies that Cersei will outlive her children which would need Myrcella and Tommen to both die before the cleganebowl. This seems unlikely.

On the other hand, "gold their crowns and gold their shrouds" might be taken to simply mean that they're lannisters in life (not baratheons) and will be remembered as such in death. For this not to feel like a cop-out, their true parentage would need to be revealed (and believed) before they die. I don't really see how this could happen though; Cersei would never do that to her children and no-one else other than Jaime has any proof.

*shrug*

I like the actual cleganebowl bit, it ties some things up nicely and gives a more satisfying less trivial interpretation of the valonqar prophecy (which is going to take a while if the valonqar actually is Tyrion).
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby Adam H » Wed Jul 23, 2014 3:42 pm UTC

Jojen is Howland Reed, Benjamin Button style. Or Merlin style.

UnTommen kills Cersei, so enough with the stupid cleganebowl theory. :P

And a serious theory that maybe everyone knows: the faceless men work for the iron bank.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby mosc » Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:37 pm UTC

Stark Reunion theory:

Bran is the hero of the story. He basically fights the war against the white walkers of the north. He learns how to slip into the minds of his brothers and sisters through dreams, wolves, directly, whatever. Anyway, in communicating with them he organizes all the factions interested in defending the seven kingdoms to unite (more or less). Sansa brings the politics, Jon the martial combat knowledge, Bran the Sorcery, and Rikkon the warden of the north to lead them. Blackfish and Davos can show up unexpectedly too, helping out the kiddies.

I guess it's pretty much the Scene from FF6 when the three separated groups meet up at Banon's house to protect the esper from the empire. Or like the LOTR fellowship scene in Rivendell.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby Celdir » Sat Jul 26, 2014 3:48 am UTC

I very much like the cleganebowl theory. :)

I don't think anyone has mentioned Dorne yet. With what's happened to Quentyn, what do they do next? I think that they might not want to side with Daenarys anymore. Prince Doran might be stricken with grief. Or maybe he just won't care that much, considering he didn't even know Quentyn all that well. Either way, I think he might support Aegon if he can somehow verify that he is indeed a Targaryen. Although, considering how cautious he is, he might just sit back and declare neutrality until he can poison/assassinate the last of the Lannisters.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:22 pm UTC

Celdir wrote:I very much like the cleganebowl theory. :)

I don't think anyone has mentioned Dorne yet. With what's happened to Quentyn, what do they do next? I think that they might not want to side with Daenarys anymore. Prince Doran might be stricken with grief. Or maybe he just won't care that much, considering he didn't even know Quentyn all that well. Either way, I think he might support Aegon if he can somehow verify that he is indeed a Targaryen. Although, considering how cautious he is, he might just sit back and declare neutrality until he can poison/assassinate the last of the Lannisters.


I think there is a good argument to be made that Dorne will ally with Aegon. Arianne will probably end up marrying him to seal the alliance, and Aegon will march on, and, I suspect, capture King's Landing. When Dany finally returns home, she will make war on Dorne/Aegon and wipe them out. Tommen and Myrcella will die in the conflict. There's a very nice set of essays here breaking down exactly how the Dornish conflict is being put together and how the various symbols and allusions herald these events.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Obby » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:45 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:Book 2:
Spoiler:
I need to reread Dany's visions in the House of the Undying and actually think about what every word and sentence means. I kinda skimmed it the first time through, but the more I think about it, the more I think that GRRM probably put an awful lot of time, thought and effort into getting every single word of that passage exactly right, so it's all probably extremely meaningful.


It absolutely is. There are tons of foreshadowed events within that scene and direct glimpses in to history. There are numerous discussion threads both on the Wiki and around various forum sites that break down each vision, if interested.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby mosc » Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:20 pm UTC

Wouldn't Daenerys have to respect Aegon's claim to the 7 kingdoms? She is the third child of Aerys II where Aegon is the oldest son of Rhaegar, Aerys II's oldest son. Viserys's claim to the throne was under the assumption that his older brother's sons were both dead. Aegon probably wants to marry Daenerys more than Arianne. I mean she's his Aunt, practically distant relatives by Targaryen standards.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby Adam H » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:37 pm UTC

Yes, just like Renly had to respect Stannis's claim, Robert had to respect Rhaegar's claim, Aegon II had to respect Rhaenyra's claim, Aegon I had to respect Black Harren's claim, and The First Men had to respect The Children's claim.

I kind of degenerated into strange comparisons there but you get my point even if you don't understand the references. ;)
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:44 pm UTC

Interestingly, apparently GRRM has admitted that somebody has guessed the ending. He would not, of course, elaborate on that in any way beyond saying that a few readers had managed to put together some "subtle and obscure clues" that foreshadow the ending.

He has also stated that he will not change the ending based on this.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire Theories

Postby firechicago » Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

I'm of the opinion that the Aegon we see is not the real Aegon, mostly just because I know how many plot details Martin has cribbed from the history of the English Wars of the Roses, and this one seems to fit perfectly.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Lazar » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:02 pm UTC

Quick question about books 2 and 3:

Spoiler:
In the books, do we see Sansa learning of Bran and Rickon's supposed death? Skimming over things, it seems like she knows about it in the early part of B3, but doesn't know about it at the end of B2.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Obby » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:Quick question about books 2 and 3:

Spoiler:
In the books, do we see Sansa learning of Bran and Rickon's supposed death? Skimming over things, it seems like she knows about it in the early part of B3, but doesn't know about it at the end of B2.

Spoiler:
IIRC, she gets told about it off-screen. One chapter of hers she does not know, but the next she's mourning them.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Vahir » Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:46 pm UTC

If you guys haven't read them already, you should check out these essays: Link

Someone recommended them to me on another forum, and they're really mind blowing. Suddenly, the entire plot in Meereen is awesome.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Lazar » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:31 am UTC

Adding those to my ever-increasing list of things I need to read once I finish the books.

Today's ASOIAF pun: Howland's Moving Castle.
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Lazar
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Lazar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:46 am UTC

Okay, another question about books 2 and 3:

Spoiler:
When Stannis is drafting his letter in ACoK, he has them remove the reference to his beloved brother Robert, saying, "He loved me no more than he had to, nor I him. […] A lie, take it out." But in ASoS when he's talking to Jon about Robb and Robert, Jon says that he loved his brother, and Stannis says, "And I mine." It seems like Stannis's view of Renly softened a bit after the shadow killed him, but did his view of Robert change too? Are these pieces of dialog just an oversight, or are they meant to show how Stannis has grown as a character?
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Vahir
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Vahir » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:24 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:Okay, another question about books 2 and 3:

Spoiler:
When Stannis is drafting his letter in ACoK, he has them remove the reference to his beloved brother Robert, saying, "He loved me no more than he had to, nor I him. […] A lie, take it out." But in ASoS when he's talking to Jon about Robb and Robert, Jon says that he loved his brother, and Stannis says, "And I mine." It seems like Stannis's view of Renly softened a bit after the shadow killed him, but did his view of Robert change too? Are these pieces of dialog just an oversight, or are they meant to show how Stannis has grown as a character?


I think Stannis's feelings for Robert were more complicated than love/don't love. He's the beleaguered younger brother who's overshadowed in everything. No doubt he respects Robert, and even admires him deep down, but it seems to be buried under his jealousy. At any rate, his personality didn't change, as at one point in the story after the conversation with Jon he gets pissed off when someone suggest they do what Robert would have done and rants at them about how sickeningly perfect his brother was.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Adacore » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:00 am UTC

Vahir wrote:If you guys haven't read them already, you should check out these essays: Link

Someone recommended them to me on another forum, and they're really mind blowing. Suddenly, the entire plot in Meereen is awesome.

I read the Meereen one last week, but I finally got around to reading the other essays on the site (Jon, Tyrion and Dorne) today, and just... wow.

Serious speculation & ADWD spoilers:
Spoiler:
After reading the Dorne essay, I really can't see any outcome other than the Water Gardens flowing red with blood.

From the essays as a whole, the analysis seems to suggest (and I mostly agree with this) that the entire series is an extended treatise on the horrors of war, and how war always, unfailingly leads to tragedy, injustice and suffering, that war is avoidable by pursuing peace, but that it is inevitable, because people are never prepared to make the sacrifices peace requires.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:24 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:
Vahir wrote:If you guys haven't read them already, you should check out these essays: Link

Someone recommended them to me on another forum, and they're really mind blowing. Suddenly, the entire plot in Meereen is awesome.

I read the Meereen one last week, but I finally got around to reading the other essays on the site (Jon, Tyrion and Dorne) today, and just... wow.

Serious speculation & ADWD spoilers:
Spoiler:
After reading the Dorne essay, I really can't see any outcome other than the Water Gardens flowing red with blood.

From the essays as a whole, the analysis seems to suggest (and I mostly agree with this) that the entire series is an extended treatise on the horrors of war, and how war always, unfailingly leads to tragedy, injustice and suffering, that war is avoidable by pursuing peace, but that it is inevitable, because people are never prepared to make the sacrifices peace requires.


Spoiler:
Nah, I'm pretty sure everything's gonna end up with Danerys and Jon Snow torching a giant hoard of zombies.

People put a lot of weight into all the death, but...a lot of traditional fantasy tropes are still there, even if Martin has discarded some of the more obviously unrealistic ones.

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LaserGuy
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:36 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Adacore wrote:
Vahir wrote:If you guys haven't read them already, you should check out these essays: Link

Someone recommended them to me on another forum, and they're really mind blowing. Suddenly, the entire plot in Meereen is awesome.

I read the Meereen one last week, but I finally got around to reading the other essays on the site (Jon, Tyrion and Dorne) today, and just... wow.

Serious speculation & ADWD spoilers:
Spoiler:
After reading the Dorne essay, I really can't see any outcome other than the Water Gardens flowing red with blood.

From the essays as a whole, the analysis seems to suggest (and I mostly agree with this) that the entire series is an extended treatise on the horrors of war, and how war always, unfailingly leads to tragedy, injustice and suffering, that war is avoidable by pursuing peace, but that it is inevitable, because people are never prepared to make the sacrifices peace requires.


Spoiler:
Nah, I'm pretty sure everything's gonna end up with Danerys and Jon Snow torching a giant hoard of zombies.

People put a lot of weight into all the death, but...a lot of traditional fantasy tropes are still there, even if Martin has discarded some of the more obviously unrealistic ones.


Ending speculation:
Spoiler:
I'd honestly be shocked if this is how the story is going to end for two reasons:
1) GRRM is an avowed pacifist. He has repeatedly compared the use of dragons in his story to the use of nuclear weapons. It would be, IMHO, completely against his own moral philosophy for the dragons to bring about victory for the "good guys".
2) Likewise, it seems pretty doubtful that GRRM's magnum opus is going to end with the "good guys" engaging in a systematic genocide of The Others. One of his major complaints about traditional fantasy has been how stories have dealt with (or ignored) what happens to the "orcs" after the story is over, so it would be pretty hypocritical of him to ignore this point in a similar manner.

That isn't to say that there won't be Dany and Jon Snow torching a giant horde of zombies... I just don't think that's how the story will be resolved.

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Lazar
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire

Postby Lazar » Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:07 am UTC

Yay, I finally finished the books! It feels so good to traverse the Internet without fear of spoilers.

So here's a concern I have – spoilers for the show and all books:

Spoiler:
I'm worried that the show – or rather, the revelatory choices made by the show – seem to be limiting the dramatic possibilities of the books to an increasing extent. As one example, consider the possibility (mentioned by characters in the books) that Jeyne Westerling might be carrying Robb Stark's child. Not super likely (there's an implication that her parents were giving her moon tea), but an interesting possibility. But in the show, Robb's pregnant wife Talisa is killed at the Red Wedding – so we know, by the logic of adaptation, that Jeyne is certainly not carrying an heir, and that she herself is probably not going to do anything important in the last two books. Other examples are Jojen, Grenn and Pyp – now that they're dead in the show, we know that they're not going to do anything important in the books either, at least nothing that can't be pawned off on some other character. With none of the Stark children except Bran being shown to have skinchanging abilities on the show, we can infer that nothing crucial will come of those abilities in the books. And the most important change so far: with the confrontation between Jaime and Tyrion removed, in which Jaime reveals the truth about Tysha, and Tyrion reveals Cersei's infidelity and falsely confesses to Joffrey's murder, the show has drastically changed their motivations from that point, and rendered that part of the book less significant. We know that future confrontations between Tyrion and Jaime or between Jaime and Cersei over these issues either won't happen, or won't be very important when they do happen. When Tyrion asks "Where do whores go?", we can now guess that the answer to that question won't have any great bearing on the story.

But I'm even more concerned for the future seasons, based on what we know of the show's casting decisions. With the mounting evidence that Michelle Fairley isn't returning to the show, we can guess that Lady Stoneheart will remain peripheral to the story. (The books tease us with the possibility that Brienne is going to kill Jaime, but what's the likelihood that she would do that without a crazy dead lady forcing her hand?) With no casting announced for Arianne or Quentyn, and Trystane referred to as "heir to Dorne" in HBO materials, we know that Arianne isn't going to do anything that can't be given to one of the Sand Snakes, and that the ramifications of Quentyn's death won't be essential to the story either. Furthermore, Euron and Victarion haven't been announced, and the latter was specifically excluded from a Greyjoy family tree that HBO published online. So how important can the Iron Fleet's journey in ADwD really be? But what concerns me the most is the lack of announcements for Old or Young Griff: based on the speculation I've read, I have a sinking feeling that the entire Aegon plotline is going to be ignored by the show. If this is the case, then it tells us that a seemingly crucial plotline in the books is going to come to little. (After all, why confuse the viewers with the notion of an extra Targaryen – let alone the theories of his being a secret Blackfyre – if he's not going to win the throne in the end?) Then there's even the matter of R + L = J. Based on the books alone, I would say that this theory seems a near certainty. But on the show, talk of Rhaegar has been rare, and talk of Lyanna non-existent, after the first season – and to me, this seems analogous to the situation with Tysha. Most viewers of episode 4.10 wouldn't have been able to tell you who Tysha is, and most viewers surely won't be able to tell you who Lyanna is. It bugs me that this, one of the strongest pieces of evidence against the most popular fan theory of the franchise, comes not from anything in the books, but from creative decisions made by HBO.

Now to be clear, I don't at all think that D&D are exerting control over GRRM – it's pretty clear that he's already laid out the endgame and that he wouldn't be cowed by TV execs. Rather, my concern is that the show has, mainly by omission, revealed things about Martin's story that substantially lessen the uncertainty that one would feel as a book reader. Martin has said in interviews that the show and books may follow increasingly divergent paths to the same end, and it's true that in the past some casting decisions have been announced as late as October. But nonetheless, it seems to me that the cumulative effect of all the show's changes is to render half of the ongoing plotlines in the books rather less promising. Are my concerns justified?
Last edited by Lazar on Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:50 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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