Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:30 pm UTC

A bit of a speculatory ramble. This isn't spoiler territory, just speculation based on a fragment of a comment I picked up once from someone who has read the books. Spoilered anyway.

Spoiler:
The comment was "R+L=J".

They probably thought they were being cryptic and weren't spoiling anything, but I think I've worked it out. I think R = Rhaegar (Targaryen), L = Lyanna (Stark), J = Jon (You know nothin', Jon Snerr). So far, we've been led to believe that Jon is Ned's bastard, but Ned is honourable to a fault, so it seems out of character for him to father a bastard. Lyanna was supposedly kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar, but it's equally possible she eloped with him. Lyanna is said to have made Ned promise something before she died, and it doesn't exactly strain credulity to imagine that promise was to adopt Jon as his own bastard son and keep the boy's true identity secret. Robert would have murdered the boy if he knew he had Targaryen blood, so in order to keep him safe, Ned would have had to lie about the boy's parentage.

It always seemed odd to me that Ned Stark, the poster boy for hard cold honour, would actually sire a bastard with some whore. And he was always very reluctant to mention Jon's mother. Jon being Rhaegar's and Lyanna's child seems to fit so perfectly.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:38 pm UTC

That theory is so popular among fans that it's generally accepted as factual. I have a pet theory that the reason TWoW is taking so long is that GRRM is rewriting the story so that the theory will end up being wrong.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adam H » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:41 pm UTC

It's generally accepted only among book readers. The show does not have as much foreshadowing (red herrings if it turns out to be false) on that topic. I'd be amazed if any show watcher independently came up with that theory.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:45 pm UTC

I've started reading the books, but not caught up to the show yet. About a quarter of the way through Book 2. Otherwise, I would probably have completely forgotten that Ned had a sister. And even then, I don't think I'd have come up with it without the aforementioned comment that got me thinking.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Yakk » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

Re: SlyReaper just starting reading the books.
Spoiler:
The book foreshadowing gets worse.

1) It is implied there is something in Lyanna's tomb. (not heavy)
2) The tower of joy at the end of Robert's Rebellion: multiple kingsguard at a tower guarding Lyanna, kill all but Stark and his friend Reed (remember that name?). Stark finds his sister "in a bed of blood", and promises her something. Stark swears Reed to secrecy.
3) Stark says that Jon has Stark blood (or his blood), which is true if Jon is his son *or* Lyanna's son
4) The dragon has 3 heads prophesy. If Jon is the legitimate son of those two, he is the rightful heir of the Tagaryans.

There is more.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:01 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Pretty sure I've already read about Ned's mysterious promise. Or it might have been in one of the bluray extras or something. And yes I know the name Reed. His lands are a giant swamp, and the kids helping out Bran are called Reed.


Okay, so it's good to know I'm not completely off-base with my speculations. But you're right, if the theory has become popular, the author will probably try to write it so that it isn't true.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:40 pm UTC

Tangential speculation:

Spoiler:
If the theory is true, I wonder whether Maester Aemon can tell that Jon is part Targaryen. He's so wise and perceptive that I wouldn't put it past him.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:42 pm UTC

Eh, given the enormous book foreshadowing he'd really have to pull something out his arse to change it now. It would come off as forced and pointless.

Spoiler:
If he does decide to crush that theory, his best bet would be to not bother denying it at all (he's been evasive when asked in interviews whereas usually he's happy to deny theories) but simply have it never arise. Jon can be Lyanna and Rhaegar's son but never realise it nor have anyone else realise it with enough certainty for it ever to be more than a strong implication. Jon could be the one king who never claimed his throne (of course, he'd still be a bastard and so lose out to Daenerys' claim and has vowed to hold no lands).
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adam H » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:45 pm UTC

Can't be bothered to find the link, but I remember GRRM talking about wild-mass-guessing (i.e. does it ruin plot twists) and he basically said that only a small percentage of readers are avid online posters/theorizers, and he can't cater just to them. Most people don't come up with that theory after a single read-through (which - believe it or not people who are reading a thread on the internet devoted to game of thrones - is typical), so there's no reason to rewrite the ending just to make a theory wrong.

And anyways, I don't believe that guessing the end of a story hurts the story. If it did, foreshadowing wouldn't be a thing.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:16 pm UTC

I don't know, this has broken on buzzfeed and the huffpost now. Pretty sure the vast majority of show-watchers will have heard of the theory before the next season if they don't know all the evidence.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:09 pm UTC

What's crazy is that
Spoiler:
for the show-watchers much of this evidence doesn't exist. The phrase "Promise me, Ned" never gets used once in the duration of the show. In fact I don't think the Tower of Joy ever gets mentioned. Just that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped and died before they could rescue her.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Yakk » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:47 pm UTC

Re: RJ changing plot based off of speculation by fans:
eSOANEM wrote:
Spoiler:
If he does decide to crush that theory, his best bet would be to not bother denying it at all (he's been evasive when asked in interviews whereas usually he's happy to deny theories) but simply have it never arise. Jon can be Lyanna and Rhaegar's son but never realise it nor have anyone else realise it with enough certainty for it ever to be more than a strong implication. Jon could be the one king who never claimed his throne (of course, he'd still be a bastard and so lose out to Daenerys' claim and has vowed to hold no lands).

Spoiler:
Who said Lyanna wasn't married to Rhaegar?

I'd guess that in Lyanna's tomb there could be stored such evidence.

Stronger spoiler warning: serious speculation
Spoiler:
And he has vowed to hold no lands until his death, when his watch stops. All he has to do is die, and come back to life, and he is cleared of his vows. (well, that and vows are words on the wind)

I've been reading the vows of the Night's Watch, and I believe the inversion of them is a description of Jon's story arc:

Night's Watch Oath wrote:Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Spoiler:
His watch ends at his death. He will take a wife, hold lands, and father children. He will wear a crown and win glory. He will live and die and live again at his post. He is the sword of light.

When Melisandre prays for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, R' hllor shows her only Snow
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:58 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:What's crazy is that
Spoiler:
for the show-watchers much of this evidence doesn't exist. The phrase "Promise me, Ned" never gets used once in the duration of the show. In fact I don't think the Tower of Joy ever gets mentioned. Just that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped and died before they could rescue her.

Even without that.
Spoiler:
It's still clearly out of character for the paragon of honour that is Ned Flanders Stark bedding a prostitute and siring a bastard. There was always something fishy about that story, and it doesn't take much imagination to conclude that Ned came across his sister and newborn nephew and adopted the boy out of love for his sister. And in the show, we are shown just how much hatred Robert Baratheon had for Targaryen blood, so he would have had to have kept the boy's identity secret.

Yeah, I've always suspected there was more to Jon than "Ned's bastard". Hearing the comment "R+L=J, amiright" just kind of completed the puzzle.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:03 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.

I think you want the book thread.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adam H » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:00 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:This post had objectionable content.

So it makes sense that you would link to it here.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Fri Jul 18, 2014 3:19 pm UTC

Theories based *entirely* on book evidence and irrelevant to the show have no reason to be here whatsoever. There is a book thread for that stuff.

Book evidence relevant to the show may be a bit fuzzier, but that theory is unambiguously in the wrong thread.

Yakk wrote:Re: RJ changing plot based off of speculation by fans:
eSOANEM wrote:
Spoiler:
If he does decide to crush that theory, his best bet would be to not bother denying it at all (he's been evasive when asked in interviews whereas usually he's happy to deny theories) but simply have it never arise. Jon can be Lyanna and Rhaegar's son but never realise it nor have anyone else realise it with enough certainty for it ever to be more than a strong implication. Jon could be the one king who never claimed his throne (of course, he'd still be a bastard and so lose out to Daenerys' claim and has vowed to hold no lands).

Spoiler:
Who said Lyanna wasn't married to Rhaegar?

I'd guess that in Lyanna's tomb there could be stored such evidence.

Stronger spoiler warning: serious speculation
Spoiler:
And he has vowed to hold no lands until his death, when his watch stops. All he has to do is die, and come back to life, and he is cleared of his vows. (well, that and vows are words on the wind)

I've been reading the vows of the Night's Watch, and I believe the inversion of them is a description of Jon's story arc:

Night's Watch Oath wrote:Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come.

Spoiler:
His watch ends at his death. He will take a wife, hold lands, and father children. He will wear a crown and win glory. He will live and die and live again at his post. He is the sword of light.

When Melisandre prays for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, R' hllor shows her only Snow


Spoiler:
Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martell and Westerosi marriages appear to almost always be monogamous (even under the Targaryens). In fact, the only exception we have amongst those who worship the seven is Aegon the conqueror who only converted after marrying both his sisters.


Other than that your argument's pretty solid.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:37 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:That theory is so popular among fans that it's generally accepted as factual. I have a pet theory that the reason TWoW is taking so long is that GRRM is rewriting the story so that the theory will end up being wrong.


GRRM has said pretty explicitly that he does not change the books based on fan theories/feedback. Just because it is foreshadowed does not mean it is wrong or a red herring. Twists for the sake of twists is bad writing. If this turns out to be a major plot point, it should be well foreshadowed. The Red Wedding, for example, was foreshadowed heavily in the books, and to a lesser extent in the show, but that didn't make it any less dramatic when it actually happened. If it's part of the story he's planned, it seems really baffling to me that he'd change it just because people figured it out, given that he left clues there for people to find.

That said, AFAIK, there is no evidence whatsoever for this theory in the show so far, so it will be interesting to see if the concepts will be introduced in another way somehow so it doesn't come completely out of left field--again, assuming this turns out to be a major plot point at all. What I'd love to see is if the show were open up a parallel storyline following Ned through Robert's Rebellion to run concurrently with the main plot. Not that the show needs more threads to follow, but it would be a great way to introduce the material that was needed without excessive (s)exposition.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Yakk » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:52 pm UTC

And the way they can introduce that is
Spoiler:
Bran's tree dreams, which in the books did show things far in the past.

but I'm not sure who they'd get to act out the scenes, as they would be rather young versions of the characters. I guess new actors?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:09 am UTC

According to this Sean Bean thinks he will have to film some flashback scenes because (speculative book spoiler)

Spoiler:
"I've definitely got some unfinished business that needs to be resolved there," he said. "I'm obviously not Jon Snow's dad. And you need that to be revealed at some point, don't you?"


I think Sean Bean could probably play a younger version of Ned, maybe with a shave and different haircut and some makeup. He couldn't pass for eighteen or whatever he is in the books, but maybe early 30s with old Ned being 50 or so would be at least close enough that they could use the same actor. Robert Baratheon would probably have to be played by someone else though, I think, assuming he's actually shown.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Yakk » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:51 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:According to this Sean Bean thinks he will have to film some flashback scenes because (speculative book spoiler)

Spoiler:
"I've definitely got some unfinished business that needs to be resolved there," he said. "I'm obviously not Jon Snow's dad. And you need that to be revealed at some point, don't you?"


I think Sean Bean could probably play a younger version of Ned, maybe with a shave and different haircut and some makeup. He couldn't pass for eighteen or whatever he is in the books, but maybe early 30s with old Ned being 50 or so would be at least close enough that they could use the same actor. Robert Baratheon would probably have to be played by someone else though, I think, assuming he's actually shown.
Laugh, Sean Bean doing book speculation! ;)

They do have some budget: they could unage Sean Bean digitally.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:52 pm UTC

They could unage him with hair dye. Probably cheaper than doing it digitally.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:54 pm UTC

Whenever I've seen digital unaging done, it's looked rather Uncanny Valleyish. :?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:51 pm UTC

It only looks bad if you notice it.

Maybe they could do what they did with Looper?

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:02 pm UTC

You mean, use actors who look nothing alike?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Mon Jul 21, 2014 10:29 pm UTC

For all the makeup they used, they failed to notice that Bruce Willis has detached earlobes and JGL doesn't.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:02 am UTC

Yeah I noticed that as well in the movie. But after a while I stopped caring.

So just get someone who vaguely resembles Sean Bean, call him Ned, and done. As for Robert Baratheon, just use the actor who played Gendry.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby ArgonV » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:57 am UTC

Or just use vague images and voice overs by the original actors?

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:01 am UTC

Breaking Bad sends its regards.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby raudorn » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:01 pm UTC

Now that Season 4 has been finally made available around here, you guys can suffer through enjoy another round of my random thoughts:

Spoiler:
  • Did someone turn up the gore level to 11 and forgot to tune it down again? I really could have done without some of the things...
  • It's official, GoT joins the long standing tradition of distance and traveltime being utterly meaningless when confronted with the plot
  • If people would stop hesitating before killing someone, they'd live much longer. It's an unhealthy habit
  • Arya was channeling the audience with that magnificient laugh
  • Military leadership continues to be suspiciously good at counting large groups of people
  • That play at the royal wedding was foreshadowing... foreshadowing to the far future when they invent television
  • A rare instance of a friendly-fire-fireball being intended. Well done, "child"
  • The whole of Westeros has crossed the point of no redemption. Chuck a nuke at them and you won't hit any innocents
  • So when the White Walkers began marching... they just stopped somewhere north of the Wall to chill out? Or maybe the entire purpose of that march was to prank Sam
  • "We will defend the wall! ... At this very narrow section, completely ignoring the rest of the hundred or so miles!"
  • "Mommy, where do White Babies come from?" "Well, first you must steal borrow happen upon a baby and then, when the Ominous Council of Vagueness love it very much, they color its eyes blue."
  • I think the biggest prank would be to carry on with Dany's plotline for the entirety of the series and then never have her going to Westeros. Basically a seperate book that just happens to be told in the same universe at the same time
  • Wait a minute, did they comment on sexposition in-universe?
  • Yes, little lady DOES want a pony
  • Cut out everything but Sandy&Arya&Brienne&Podrick and you have a great road trip movie
  • "Oh noes, dragons kill things. Who would've thought?"
  • "... in the last years." Not that you would notice the passage of time with a change of season or anything. After all, winter is just around the corner, I swear it!
  • The entries on Arya's list keep decimating themselves. Neat feature, if you ask me
  • That thing with the Iron Bank is not a metaphor, not a simile, comparison, critique, homage, mirror or anything. It's taken verbatim from a history textbook
  • Hey Sansa, you did something! Or, well, twisted around something that was done to you, but that's almost the same thing
  • Varrys has the ability to say "F**k this s**t, I'm outta here!" without saying anything
  • Season 5 will feature Frankenstein's Mountain?
  • Rats, now I crave lemon cake

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:09 am UTC

raudorn wrote:
  • Did someone turn up the gore level to 11 and forgot to tune it down again? I really could have done without some of the things...


The gore! I turned it up to 11! And I didn't turn it down again! Then I smashed the dials! Like this!

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adam H » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:36 pm UTC

raudorn wrote:It's official, GoT joins the long standing tradition of distance and traveltime being utterly meaningless when confronted with the plot

Which part? I don't remember anything more blatent than Littlefinger in Season 2 when he goes from King's Landing to the Reach to Harrenhal and back to King's Landing in like 2 episodes.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:54 pm UTC

The show has always taken lots of liberties with distances and timing of events. In particular, there are events in King's Landing that only make sense on the scale of days, whereas other plotlines, particularly, Dany and Jon's, only really make sense on the scale of months, or even years.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Diadem » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:16 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:The show has always taken lots of liberties with distances and timing of events. In particular, there are events in King's Landing that only make sense on the scale of days, whereas other plotlines, particularly, Dany and Jon's, only really make sense on the scale of months, or even years.

Quite a lot of time passes in King's Landing, but it doesn't really feel that way because we only focus on the important bits. The other storylines do that as well, but since they involve a lot of travel, we still get a good sense of it taking long.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Yakk » Tue Sep 02, 2014 3:01 pm UTC

Re raudron's spoiler.
Spoiler:
raudorn wrote:[*] It's official, GoT joins the long standing tradition of distance and traveltime being utterly meaningless when confronted with the plot

Each season takes place over at least a year? :)
raudorn wrote:[*] If people would stop hesitating before killing someone, they'd live much longer. It's an unhealthy habit

What has nobody gotten screwed over by killing/trying to kill someone yet?
raudorn wrote:[*] Arya was channeling the audience with that magnificient laugh

heh
[*] Military leadership continues to be suspiciously good at counting large groups of people

When? Are you certain they are right in their count?
raudorn wrote:[*] The whole of Westeros has crossed the point of no redemption. Chuck a nuke at them and you won't hit any innocents

Do you mean the nobility? That is sort of the point.
raudorn wrote:[*] So when the White Walkers began marching... they just stopped somewhere north of the Wall to chill out? Or maybe the entire purpose of that march was to prank Sam

Ask yourself what the wall is.
raudorn wrote:[*] "We will defend the wall! ... At this very narrow section, completely ignoring the rest of the hundred or so miles!"

The only place with a tunnel. They where defending the tunnel more than the wall.

Crossing the wall by climbing requires huge amounts of physical fitness and luck, and even then you lose a huge chunk of the people who try.
raudorn wrote:[*] "Mommy, where do White Babies come from?" "Well, first you must steal borrow happen upon a baby and then, when the Ominous Council of Vagueness love it very much, they color its eyes blue."

Tribute, not borrowing/stealing.
raudorn wrote:[*] I think the biggest prank would be to carry on with Dany's plotline for the entirety of the series and then never have her going to Westeros. Basically a seperate book that just happens to be told in the same universe at the same time

I can point you to a beautiful deconstruction of what is going on with Dany, but it would contain serious spoilers.
raudorn wrote:[*] "... in the last years." Not that you would notice the passage of time with a change of season or anything. After all, winter is just around the corner, I swear it!

Hmm? It isn't clear that summers last years in this world? As do winters?
raudorn wrote:[*] That thing with the Iron Bank is not a metaphor, not a simile, comparison, critique, homage, mirror or anything. It's taken verbatim from a history textbook

What?
raudorn wrote:[*] Season 5 will feature Frankenstein's Mountain?

Think for a bit about what that means, politically.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:37 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Re raudron's spoiler.


Spoiler:
raudorn wrote:[*] So when the White Walkers began marching... they just stopped somewhere north of the Wall to chill out? Or maybe the entire purpose of that march was to prank Sam


Ask yourself what the wall is.


Also, we have pretty limited knowledge of the White Walker's limits or motivations. From the point of view of the Night's Watch, it certainly gave the impression that a White Walker invasion was immediately imminent. But that's only their interpretation of events. In the most minimalist interpretation of the White Walkers, it's likely that their powers are somehow derived from Winter, and perhaps are unable to move south until the change in seasons.


Spoiler:
raudorn wrote:[*] "We will defend the wall! ... At this very narrow section, completely ignoring the rest of the hundred or so miles!"

The only place with a tunnel. They where defending the tunnel more than the wall.

Crossing the wall by climbing requires huge amounts of physical fitness and luck, and even then you lose a huge chunk of the people who try.


Remember too that the Wildlings are trying to move their entire civilization south. I don't remember in the show what their numbers are supposed to be, but in the books it's something like 100,000 people, including noncombatants, children, etc., plus livestock, and whatever possessions that they could carry. While getting some soldiers over the Wall for a sneak attack was a practical idea (which they did, and Mance suggested that he had more infiltrators heading to other parts of the Wall), in reality, to move that many people in a timely manner, you need a big entrance. The tunnel is not so large, but it is apparently the best access point available. There's no way to get that many people over by climbing. From the Bran/Sam story, there do appear to be other tunnels in the abandoned keeps, but they also seem to be magically sealed and breaching them may be impossible.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby raudorn » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:43 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Yakk wrote:Each season takes place over at least a year? :)

I get that it's supposed to take a long time to get from anywhere to anywhere, but the relative travel speed seems to vary by necessity. I haven't done any analysis on the actual distances, but purely from watching the show, it seems that Brienne&Pod traveling to the Eyrie takes roughly the same time as Stannis getting to the Iron Bank (wherever that is), sailing back, assembling an army, putting them on ships, sailing to the Wall and dropping them off on the coast.
Yakk wrote:What has nobody gotten screwed over by killing/trying to kill someone yet?

There is also a good amount of other things involved, but several alive/dead pairs of people would be reversed if the dead one had not stopped to gloat/be shocked/look evil/etc.
Yakk wrote:When? Are you certain they are right in their count?

Pretty much every time they mention the number of an army. Sure, the numbers are not supposed to be accurate, but even a Fermi estimate only lands you in the right order of magnitude. They must have people who's job it is to count people.
Yakk wrote:Do you mean the nobility? That is sort of the point.

Also foot soldiers, random patrons a tavern, sell swords and some factions wholesale (yes, this is an exaggeration).
Yakk wrote:Ask yourself what the wall is.

The same as every wall. A practical way to keep people from entering an area. I just don't see why the White Walkers would be particular bothered by it. If they have the same problem getting behind the wall as the Wildings, then what's the big threat?
Yakk wrote:The only place with a tunnel. They where defending the tunnel more than the wall. Crossing the wall by climbing requires huge amounts of physical fitness and luck, and even then you lose a huge chunk of the people who try.

I don't believe that tunnel is actually the only way to get across the wall without climbing. What, the wall extends a hundred miles into the sea or something? Yes, to move an entire people, it may be the only practical way, but it's utterly stupid to climb the wall on the most strongly defended section. The Night's Watch knows that and they don't have the manpower to have lookouts on the entire length of the wall, but they were depending on the Wildings to do the tactical blunder of a direct attack on that section.
Yakk wrote:I can point you to a beautiful deconstruction of what is going on with Dany, but it would contain serious spoilers.

I might still be interested. I can stomach a few heavy spoilers. I could hardly avoid the S4 spoilers while waiting to watch S4.
Yakk wrote:Hmm? It isn't clear that summers last years in this world? As do winters?

Yes, it's clear. But you either mention an important development and then actually show it or you don't mention it at all. Having it just hover there for four seasons is annoying. Mention it once in S1, then start S5 with snow in King's Landing, that's what I'd like.
Yakk wrote:Think for a bit about what that means, politically.

They're about to enter the acceleration phase of technology? Or something about DawnDorne now sure as hell not joining the Fold? The Fold didn't matter during the War of the Five Kings, and it won't matter with either Ice or Fire on the doorstep (whoever gets their collective arse across the Narrow Sea/Wall first)


Edit: It just occured to me that my ramblings might be misinterpreted as actual attempts at critical analysis of GoT. I assure you this is not the case and you are illadviced to give me that much regard. I might also be joking right now.
Edit2: I also misspelled Dorne as Dawn. That's what you get for watching the show!

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Yakk » Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:54 pm UTC

Spoiler:
raudorn wrote:
Yakk wrote:What has nobody gotten screwed over by killing/trying to kill someone yet?

There is also a good amount of other things involved, but several alive/dead pairs of people would be reversed if the dead one had not stopped to gloat/be shocked/look evil/etc.

Ah. I meant the other way around -- killing someone needlessly.
Yakk wrote:When? Are you certain they are right in their count?

Pretty much every time they mention the number of an army. Sure, the numbers are not supposed to be accurate, but even a Fermi estimate only lands you in the right order of magnitude. They must have people who's job it is to count people.

And/or spies in the enemy ranks.
Yakk wrote:Do you mean the nobility? That is sort of the point.

Also foot soldiers, random patrons a tavern, sell swords and some factions wholesale (yes, this is an exaggeration).
Soldiers, without pay, are landless brigands. One of the costs of war.
Yakk wrote:Ask yourself what the wall is.
The same as every wall. A practical way to keep people from entering an area. I just don't see why the White Walkers would be particular bothered by it. If they have the same problem getting behind the wall as the Wildings, then what's the big threat?
It is a sky scraper height wall of solid ice maintained for millennia by people with primitive technology. And it still stands.

Do you really think it is just a wall of ice?

To people in Westros, it just is. Something that has been for pretty much all of recorded history. A wonder built by the ancients.
Yakk wrote:The only place with a tunnel. They where defending the tunnel more than the wall. Crossing the wall by climbing requires huge amounts of physical fitness and luck, and even then you lose a huge chunk of the people who try.

I don't believe that tunnel is actually the only way to get across the wall without climbing. What, the wall extends a hundred miles into the sea or something?

You plan to move an entire civilization using boats? That would take a while.

The attack on the people at the top of the wall, and behind the wall, where all distractions: they want to take the tunnel. With the tunnel, they can take the fort. With the fort and the tunnel, they have cut the forces on top of the wall off from resupply, and can either siege them to surrender (short of weaponry), and use the tunnel to migrate a people.
Yes, to move an entire people, it may be the only practical way, but it's utterly stupid to climb the wall on the most strongly defended section.

Yes, they could climb far away. Then attack down the top of the wall -- if there are actual routes up there -- on the flanks. Assuming there are routes on top of the wall that you can follow -- maybe the top is wind-swept and slick over most of the distance, and as hard to travel as climbing the wall itself?

That would explain why they are all about crossing the wall, and attacking the fort.
The Night's Watch knows that and they don't have the manpower to have lookouts on the entire length of the wall, but they were depending on the Wildings to do the tactical blunder of a direct attack on that section.

They know the wildlings can cross the wall -- I don't think that offers an efficient way to attack the top of the wall for whatever reason.
Yakk wrote:I can point you to a beautiful deconstruction of what is going on with Dany, but it would contain serious spoilers.

I might still be interested. I can stomach a few heavy spoilers. I could hardly avoid the S4 spoilers while waiting to watch S4.

Massive, massive spoilers involving things that have not happened in the show. Even the URL is a spoiler.
Yakk wrote:Hmm? It isn't clear that summers last years in this world? As do winters?

Yes, it's clear. But you either mention an important development and then actually show it or you don't mention it at all. Having it just hover there for four seasons is annoying. Mention it once in S1, then start S5 with snow in King's Landing, that's what I'd like.

It is hovering there. Over everyone.

The entire westros is on its way to starvation due to the war and insufficient stores of food caused by it. It should be on everyone's minds.

There are many many levels why the Clash of Kings is a complete and utter disaster for Westeros. First, war is a disaster. Second, war where you burn lands down is a disaster. Third, war when you need massive food stores to survive winter is a disaster. Forth, war when there is a Dany with Dragons gathering an army on the other side of the world is a disaster. Fifth, war when there are Ice Zombies from Beyond the Wall stirring is a disaster.
Yakk wrote:Think for a bit about what that means, politically.

They're about to enter the acceleration phase of technology? Or something about DawnDorne now sure as hell not joining the Fold? The Fold didn't matter during the War of the Five Kings, and it won't matter with either Ice or Fire on the doorstep (whoever gets their collective arse across the Narrow Sea/Wall first)

Nope!
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adam H » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:47 pm UTC

raudorn wrote:
Spoiler:
Yakk wrote:Each season takes place over at least a year? :)

I get that it's supposed to take a long time to get from anywhere to anywhere, but the relative travel speed seems to vary by necessity. I haven't done any analysis on the actual distances, but purely from watching the show, it seems that Brienne&Pod traveling to the Eyrie takes roughly the same time as Stannis getting to the Iron Bank (wherever that is), sailing back, assembling an army, putting them on ships, sailing to the Wall and dropping them off on the coast.


Season 4:
Spoiler:
The Iron Bank is in Braavos which is halfway between Dragonstone and the Wall. I'm pretty sure Stannis hired his mercenary army in Braavos, so I don't think there's any egregious time dilation going on.
-Adam

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Adacore » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:08 am UTC

raudorn wrote:
Spoiler:
I don't believe that tunnel is actually the only way to get across the wall without climbing. What, the wall extends a hundred miles into the sea or something? Yes, to move an entire people, it may be the only practical way, but it's utterly stupid to climb the wall on the most strongly defended section. The Night's Watch knows that and they don't have the manpower to have lookouts on the entire length of the wall, but they were depending on the Wildings to do the tactical blunder of a direct attack on that section.
Spoiler:
In general, the wall is considered impassable for large groups in any reasonable timescale anywhere other than: the Shadow Tower, at the western end of the wall; Castle Black, with the tunnel; Eastwatch-by-Sea, at the eastern end of the wall. The garrisons at the Shadow Tower and Eastwatch are smaller than Castle Black, but they are garrisoned, and since the wildlings don't have a navy (or any boats at all, really, or any experience with ships), these forces can fairly easily repel attempts by wildlings to move south around the ends of the wall by sea (although it is noted, at least in the book, that there are regular attempts, and a steady but small trickle of wildlings do succeed in the crossing). The rest of the wall doesn't have sentries, but is patrolled semi-regularly, so any attempt to cross it would be noticed before it succeeded.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lazar » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:06 pm UTC

Unrelated: Based on the interviews I've seen, I get the impression that Stephen Dillane is pretty much Stannis in real life.
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