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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:36 pm UTC

I don't know why we need to avoid subtitles... That sounds really Anglo-centric to me.
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Re: Logan

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:38 pm UTC

I don't even recall what the kids said that wasn't directed at logan. They barely spoke...actually I recall some (fluent, natural sounding) spanish from the kids but can't remember the scenes, but there was more than one
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Re: Logan

Postby Moo » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:48 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I don't know why we need to avoid subtitles... That sounds really Anglo-centric to me.

I would have thought an insistence on subtitles would be Anglo-centric, but that's just a gut feel, I haven't examined it too much
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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:53 pm UTC

I meant it seems to me to try to make it easy on people so they don't have to deal with reading. Most people whose native tongue isn't English and watch American media, are used to at least some subtitles - I've been seeing shows/movies with subtitles since I was able to read.
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Re: Logan

Postby SDK » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:52 pm UTC

I mean, you can't have complex scenes in other languages without subtitles, but Laura said some pretty complicated stuff in Spanish which only I understood (of the friends I saw it with). Not necessary for the movie to progress, but most subtitles in Hollywood movies aren't necessary anyway. They're just translating some random unimportant comment most of the time. I much prefer stuff like that being natural.

I have no problem with subtitles generally. I think you should just use them when you need to.
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Re: Logan

Postby natraj » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:48 pm UTC

on a tangent note, i watch everything with captions (not subtitles) and i get mega angry when the captions have been captioning english dialogue and then someone switches to another language (e.g. laura speaking spanish) and the captions just go "[speaks Spanish]"

like talk about anglo-centric, that's both incredibly anglo-centric and incredibly ablist. how do they know the people reading captions don't speak the other language in question? i happen to understand spanish fine and not captioning the spanish means i am not in fact getting the same movie as people listening to it. if the movie chooses not to subtitle other languages that's fine but the captioners shouldn't make assumptions about the language literacy of their audience ugh.
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Re: Logan

Postby Weeks » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:00 pm UTC

So I usually go to the subtitled showing of the movie over the dubbed one not just because I sometimes don't understand spoken English that well, but also some movies apparently can't get audio levels right and BLAST the sound fx but have barely audible voices. They didn't have subs for the Spanish spoken parts, which makes sense to me, but I would expect subs for any other languages. It would be cool if we had specifically closed captioned cinemas
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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:48 pm UTC

natraj wrote:on a tangent note, i watch everything with captions (not subtitles) and i get mega angry when the captions have been captioning english dialogue and then someone switches to another language (e.g. laura speaking spanish) and the captions just go "[speaks Spanish]"

like talk about anglo-centric, that's both incredibly anglo-centric and incredibly ablist. how do they know the people reading captions don't speak the other language in question? i happen to understand spanish fine and not captioning the spanish means i am not in fact getting the same movie as people listening to it. if the movie chooses not to subtitle other languages that's fine but the captioners shouldn't make assumptions about the language literacy of their audience ugh.


Yeah I've seen that happen a few times. Like there's a couple of episodes in Leverage where a character speaks Hebrew, she actually says some pretty intense profanity that wouldn't go over smoothly in English, and that doesn't get translated. I definitely get if the creators don't want their audience to understand the character's words.

On a positive note, in Jane the Virgin her grandmother solely speaks Spanish, and that's subtitled on-screen. Avoiding subtitles shouldn't be a guiding principle in media.
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Re: Logan

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:03 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Yeah I've seen that happen a few times. Like there's a couple of episodes in Leverage where a character speaks Hebrew, she actually says some pretty intense profanity that wouldn't go over smoothly in English, and that doesn't get translated. I definitely get if the creators don't want their audience to understand the character's words.

On a positive note, in Jane the Virgin her grandmother solely speaks Spanish, and that's subtitled on-screen. Avoiding subtitles shouldn't be a guiding principle in media.


I think it depends on the director's intention. The scene where she goes off on Logan in Spanish seems intended to be chaotic and confusing to non-spanish speakers, like Logan is in the movie. I suspect that is why they didn't put subtitles nor proper captions. The example of you gave in Jane the Virgin I'd imagine is different since the Spanish spoken there (and the details of such) are actually important to the episode's storyline. I don't speak Spanish but I do speak French and I know in a number of mainstream movies they'll sometimes have unsubtitled French going on, and more often than not it's merely there for flavor rather than the content that is being spoken. The Merovingian in the second Matrix does this if I recall (just some silly swearing I think).

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Re: Logan

Postby natraj » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:13 pm UTC

right no i get if the intention is you're not supposed to understand it as an english speaker, i am not saying the captions should translate what they're saying in other languages. i am saying that if the movie has people speaking other languages and the movie does not subtitle it, the captions should caption it in the language it is being spoken. so the effect would be identical, a deaf bilingual spanish/english speaker would understand laura but a deaf person who only speaks english wouldn't understand her still.

but instead they just write "speaks spanish" like no deaf people know other languages and that's bs.
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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:23 pm UTC

Ohhhh I get it yeah that makes perfect sense. Like if someone says "Je parle Francais" the subtitles won't be "I speak French" they'll be "Je parle Francais".
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Re: Logan

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:49 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:The first of these doesn't seem to stack up because several of them have even less of an accent than Laura. More importantly, none of them are still accompanied by someone like Logan and that two-way attachment is kind-of necessary to a Laura-style ark. Furthermore, the implication throughout the film is that pretty much all the x-men are gone and so there's no obvious American mutant to help the other kids meaning they'd probably have to have made it the whole way with the nurse who broke them out (who were Mexican) which also makes the opening-up (to an American) ark much less likely. All of this seems to make the first option completely implausible to me.
For one, I am pretty sure all the mutant children were fluently bilingual at least and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were more comfortable with English than Spanish. The scientists spoke in English and any education they got would have also been in English. All the nurses obviously spoke both and while they probably spoke a lot of Spanish around and/or to the children, that only means all the children understand Spanish. Also I thought some of them spoke Spanish to each other when Logan wasn't around but I have to admit my memory is a bit hazy.

In practical terms, of course, they wanted a bunch of child actors and finding bilingual child actors surely isn't easy. Then if you have a choice between them speaking English or Spanish, one would obviously make the work easier since the language on set was obviously English.

For what my experience as a bilingual person is worth, my instinctive language to speak is not my native tongue but the one I have been thinking in most recently. This includes things like sometimes speaking English to people when I get suddenly woken up and am still getting my bearings or providing "scripted" responses in English (e.g. "Thanks", "Sorry", "Pardon" etc.) and I am not nearly as bilingual as these children- I didn't start speaking English in every day life until I was already an adult. So if the children have been making their way through the whole US trying to blend in by speaking English and they're equally comfortable speaking both languages, I find nothing strange about them mostly speaking English.

natraj wrote:but instead they just write "speaks spanish" like no deaf people know other languages and that's bs.
I always assumed the captions match the script because they often don't match exactly what is said by the actors. So if the script says "Laura speaks in Spanish" something like that would appear in the captions but if the script has the specific dialogue, it would appear in the captions. I don't really have anything to back this up though.
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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:00 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:I always assumed the captions match the script because they often don't match exactly what is said by the actors. So if the script says "Laura speaks in Spanish" something like that would appear in the captions but if the script has the specific dialogue, it would appear in the captions. I don't really have anything to back this up though.

I think it depends on who's doing the subtitles. Often you don't have a script to work off of and it's all by ear.

Even though I've been reading subtitles in English for many years now, I guess I still instinctively think of them as translations...
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Re: Logan

Postby Chen » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:20 pm UTC

natraj wrote:right no i get if the intention is you're not supposed to understand it as an english speaker, i am not saying the captions should translate what they're saying in other languages. i am saying that if the movie has people speaking other languages and the movie does not subtitle it, the captions should caption it in the language it is being spoken. so the effect would be identical, a deaf bilingual spanish/english speaker would understand laura but a deaf person who only speaks english wouldn't understand her still.

but instead they just write "speaks spanish" like no deaf people know other languages and that's bs.


Ah yes, I didn't catch that from what you were first saying, but that's an excellent point.

Aside from maybeagnostic's point about the script being vague on what to say there, the only other real explanation would be if the people doing the captioning didn't know the language either and without subtitles they just wrote it as [speaks language]. Seems lazy, though really I've seen a ton of absolutely terrible subtitles/captions/dubs out there so it wouldn't really surprise me.

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Re: Logan

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:49 pm UTC

Left this thread until I'd seen the film, and interesting direction it's taken.

Dealing with it in the opposite direction, Logan never spoke (notable) Spanish to the girl (or anybody else, with south-of-the-border background), whilst obviously understanding (slightly more than me) her favoured speech and dialect.

Logan, like many extended-life characters (the Highlander, for example) has lived (at least militarily) all across the globe and certainly picked up local languages (at least those in use during R&R amongst the locals, and various martial terms) but seems reticent to actually resort to self-translating. Compared with the Professor, who was quite keen to try ("Choo choo!"), perhaps indicating both the differing character and his intrinsic mind-based facility in that he likes to say things that put the other person at ease.

(Myself, I'd probably prefer to do my best speaking the language of the other whilst haltingly rephrasing to use words I knew (maybe "up looking aircraft", and hand movements, instead of "helicopter"), and the other vice-versa, than expect to speak 'normally' and trusting that I wasn't over- or under-estimating my correspondent's knowledge of English, and that I could get around any odd English pronunciations or mis-idiomatic literalist translations that came back. Ich denke du verstehlen mich, mit dieser worten, aber nicht alles korrect, ja? Et pour les Francais, mon parlez (-ons?) est tres rouille, mais votre comprehension ne c'est pas difficile, non? Buorno giono, so soltanto podi Italiano. Dywed chi ffordd i Canol y Dref, C(?/G?)ymraeg ffrind (merched/dynion), dim mwy! But then I'd prefer replies in English, especially if spoken so I can at least have half an idea of where onewor den dsan danoth erstarts.)


As to the film, liked it, in a tragic way. Two literal Chechov's guns, of note (the one on the dashboard, early, the one on the ground, near the end) clearly telegraphed within a minute or two of use, but nothing like as telegraphed as the...
Spoiler:
Chechov's ammunition, which just happened to be of the correct caliber, and was our girl taught how to fire a gun? Could so easily have missed, and spoilt/redirected the plot.
...which I cover up in spoiler just in case anybody is actually reading this who has not already seen the movie who also does not have the capability of working out that it's going to happen (and who to, almost immediately that the Who is revealed).

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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:02 pm UTC

They talk about the kids being trained to be soldiers, I don't find it unlikely they knew how to use firearms
Spoiler:
Of course it did take them about 20 minutes of being attacked and shot at before they remembered "Oh we're fucking mutants with super powers!"
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Re: Logan

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:47 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:They talk about the kids being trained to be soldiers, I don't find it unlikely they knew how to use firearms

Soldiers with their specialities (for which the spoiler point is a point*)... Non-mutant weaponry needs ammo, can misfire or otherwise break, can be taken away (or can be difficult to even take on covert missions), needs training to make it "a part of your body" in a sufficiently instinctual manner. There was no sign that the project was training anyone to use anything other than their 'natural' talents, especially Little Miss One-man-army, once fully upgraded.


* - Though, even more to the point, the Reavers (who were doubtless briefed) and their Mexican 'SWAT-squad' assistants (who may not have been, beyond the size of the backhander they were due) in the original encounter utterly failed to live up to their implied "soldier for hire, and good at it" reputations.

Even at the end, one would assume that...
Spoiler:
...they'd have been briefed about which kids could breath supercooling onto you, so that if you caught that one you'd not put yourself into a vulnerable position. There should have been proper coordination such that the ones going after the electricity kid were equipped with a faraday-suit, and possibly a metal-thread net with grounding wires, etc.

What they did was get Central Casting guys-with-guns and let them loose, with practically no preparation and seemingly with orders that...
Spoiler:
"dead or alive - we were planning on liquidating them all anyway, so dead would just save time" was code for "round 'em up by hand, with minimum force (maybe one flesh-wound tops), and huddle them together while we all get so distracted by one guy that we forget all our memories of our obvious military training and let the last of the brats pass by in our peripheral vision". Really, perimiter guarding should be a thing, and (even if it threatens to become a Circular Firing Squad) an inward facing Lager of guards, not forgetting my prior point that unarmed mutants still aren't safe...


Really, the head honcho had the only explicit genre-savviness of the whole film (once amputated, twice shy?), the mooks were practically red-shirts, even before they got their own blood on them. Which is a harsh criticism, I feel, for a film that I liked a lot, but has to be said, while it's still relatively fresh in my mind.

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Re: Logan

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:51 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
mosc wrote:That's pretty basic in the concept of a movie. I can't name a movie that manages two languages both taking up decent chunks of dialog with any skill. This bothers me less than the movie skipping people changing clothes or going to the bathroom and brushing their teeth and by that I mean not at all.


I feel that Inglourious Basterds did a pretty decent job of not sticking everyone in the Translation Convention trope, but more Surprisingly good foreign language and Hiding Behind the language barrier with plenty of Bilingual Bonuses (Warning, TV Tropes). But I admit that this movie is an outlier in this respect.


The Canadian film Bon Cop Bad Cop (though overall a fairly mediocre movie otherwise) did this extremely well. It switched pretty seamlessly back and forth between French and English throughout the entire movie. They did screenings with the English subtitled, the French subtitled, or neither, depending on where in the country you were.

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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

I wouldn't be surprised if they had general training anyway. I was in military intelligence when I was serving, and though there was very low likelihood of me ever using a rifle (and indeed I have not), I was still trained on one.
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Re: Logan

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:20 pm UTC

(Have been leaving it uncountered, as insufficient Chekhovian proof, either way, but new point just occurred to me.)

There's a Fridge Horror (in TVTropes terms, though I haven't yet checked if they've got this noted), in that Laura's still a young girl. She hasn't stopped growing yet, one would imagine, yet she is already 'enhanced'.

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Re: Logan

Postby Angua » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:23 pm UTC

And yet I can't help but think that her adamantine skeleton won't grow with her.
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Re: Logan

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:40 pm UTC

Prexactly.

(Thus the horror. Impending, at least.)

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Re: Logan

Postby pseudoidiot » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:36 pm UTC

As far as I remember it didn't get touched on in the movie at all, but canonically only her bone claws were coated with adamantium. Not her entire skeleton (I think).
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Re: Logan

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:38 am UTC

I was thinking about that too. But -- yeah, regarding what pseudoidiot said - and at one point she gets speared straight through the center of her chest. I think if she had a full adamantium skeleton, it wouldn't have gone through. Also, I don't know too much about bone growth, but in a comic book world, it seems plausible to 'lace' bones with adamantium rather than coat them -- so as your bones grow, the degree of adamantium 'purity' decreases (making you less 'unbreakable', but also letting your bones grow over time).

And considering that she was created as a bio-weapon for a corporation -- and corporations like to protect their assets! -- I can't imagine they designed her without taking into account that she'd 'break down' the moment she hit her first growth spurt.

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Re: Logan

Postby Weeks » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:18 am UTC

pseudoidiot wrote:As far as I remember it didn't get touched on in the movie at all, but canonically only her bone claws were coated with adamantium. Not her entire skeleton (I think).
So she can't get crushed into a ball by Magneto Jr., cool
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Re: Logan

Postby djangochained » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:18 am UTC

I like the idea of a unique superhero movie like this. Was a nice change from the bash smash we usually see from Avengers

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Re: Logan

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:07 am UTC

That's a good point. I believe this and The Winter Soldier are the only two superhero movies that have found a good balance between serious dark topics and fun heroics.
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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:42 pm UTC

I don't think any of the heroics in Logan were fun...
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Re: Logan

Postby maybeagnostic » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

Really?
Spoiler:
Logan himself was tired and hurting a lot of the time but Laura's action scenes were just fun to watch. The first time they escape from the private military guys where Laura suddenly sprouts claws and starts kicking ass then they get into the limousine and have a car chase? The end of the movie where the kids suddenly realize they have powers and work together to free themselves? They also had several scenes sprinkled throughout the movie of Laura bonding with Logan and Xavier- not action but still endearing despite or even because of Logan still being an ass during those.
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Re: Logan

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:21 pm UTC

I agree that some non-action scenes were endearing, as you said. But the action scenes you described, I wouldn't call them "fun". They're well choreographed, they're impressive, they're exciting or exhilarating, but they're also disturbing, horrifying, and shocking.
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Re: Logan

Postby Chen » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:01 pm UTC

The first scene with the guys trying to steal his rims was "fun". I mean it was also brutal, but I wasn't really horrified, shocked or disturbed by that one. The douches got what was coming to them. The ones with Laura were more shocking more because of the kid being juxtaposed with the horrible violence.

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Re: Logon

Postby Weeks » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:02 pm UTC

Chen wrote:The douches got what was coming to them.
I fail to see how this is "fun". Did you go "YEAH MURDER THOSE FUCKERS!"?

eta: nice thread rename btw
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Re: Logon

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:36 am UTC

Weeks wrote:
Chen wrote:The douches got what was coming to them.
I fail to see how this is "fun". Did you go "YEAH MURDER THOSE FUCKERS!"?

eta: nice thread rename btw


After they shot him, yeah I was good with some murderin'. Who goes around stealing hubcaps/rims and is INSTANTLY willing to murder another person for them? It's "fun" in the sense of seeing them get their comeuppance. I'll grant its also quite dark since its a pretty brutal scene. It's not the same type of fun as say Guardians of the Galaxy when say Yondu murders the fuck out of the whole group of Ronon's soliders with his arrow thing.

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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:40 pm UTC

That actually broke my suspension of belief for a sec; like, maybe I am just *incredibly* naive, but I don't think most self-respecting thieves are going to pull a shotgun out and fire on you when you find them stealing your hubcaps. I mean, besides the fact that shotgun shells cost money -- and the fact that you've now turned what's possibly just a larceny into a major frigging felony -- what sort of gang drives around shooting people over expensive hubcaps?

At most, I'd expect them to throw a few punches, pull the shotgun out, and then tell him to go home and collect the insurance money.

I took it to imply how tough the world had gotten, but it was still jarring. I feel like the scene could have worked with them trying to scare Logan, Logan not going for it, and somebody firing out of panic when Logan exposes his claws.

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Re: Logon

Postby Zohar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:44 pm UTC

Chen wrote:After they shot him, yeah I was good with some murderin'. Who goes around stealing hubcaps/rims and is INSTANTLY willing to murder another person for them?

Badly-written characters, obviously.
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Re: Logon

Postby Weeks » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:51 pm UTC

We get local news about thugs shooting people for the stupidest shit. They shot a guy for his goddamn sneakers. I don't know if that's due to a lack of self-respect or not but it does happen.

Hell you can google and you get hits for it happening in Detroit.
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Re: Logon

Postby Zohar » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:54 pm UTC

It really bothered me it was a bunch of Mexicans getting slaughtered by Wolverine as the first action scene. The rest of the movie rectified that, but it didn't make a good first impression. It just seemed like lazy, racist writing (bad hombres and shit like that).
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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:03 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:We get local news about thugs shooting people for the stupidest shit. They shot a guy for his goddamn sneakers. I don't know if that's due to a lack of self-respect or not but it does happen.

Hell you can google and you get hits for it happening in Detroit.
Shot over hubcaps, though? Like, maybe I'm overthinking this, but if you're stealing hubcaps regularly, you're probably going to at least get a little bit smart about it. You're not just going to open up with a shotgun the first time you start working and find out the driver's asleep in the backseat.

I'm also often suspicious about accounts of people being shot and killed over stuff like sneakers; like, our media has an incentive to sensationalize, and people being killed over sneakers is pretty sensational. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of those situations were way more complex (an argument over sneakers that escalated; a botched robbery where somebody panicked and opened fire).

I mean, not that this can't happen -- I'm just super skeptical that it's as much of a thing as we're led to believe.

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Re: Logon

Postby Diadem » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:24 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:It really bothered me it was a bunch of Mexicans getting slaughtered by Wolverine as the first action scene. The rest of the movie rectified that, but it didn't make a good first impression. It just seemed like lazy, racist writing (bad hombres and shit like that).

It was set IN Mexico. What ethnicity did you expect the thieves to be? I suppose they could have just cast white people for every role in the movie, regardless of where the movie was set, but I suspect that would have also led to charges of racism.
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Re: Logon

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:29 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:It was set IN Mexico. What ethnicity did you expect the thieves to be? I suppose they could have just cast white people for every role in the movie, regardless of where the movie was set, but I suspect that would have also led to charges of racism.
1) That scene took place in New Mexico, and 2) Pretty sure Zohar isn't taking issue with the fact that the thieves were Hispanic (we don't know if they were Mexican, and judging by the fact that that scene takes place in America, they prolly were Americans), but that they were Hispanic, ultra-violent, and ultimately all got carved to pieces in the first five minutes.

You could have cast the gang as non-Hispanic (gonna go out on a limb here and say that yes, there are such things as non-Hispanic gangs in New Mexico), but I think it would been even better to just rewrite the scene around the shotgun going off in a panic, and somebody getting a limb or two cut off in the aftermath. Have the soldier dude refer to hospital records that came up about gang-bangers showing up with a couple of missing limbs instead of a police report about a pile of carved up corpses.


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