Wander Woman

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:09 am UTC

Saw it today and enjoyed it! Solid B- film. May post more thoughts tomorrow.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Benjamin Bratt » Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:14 pm UTC

I liked it too. But Ares is just too weak LOL. God of War dying like tht...

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:42 pm UTC

Saw it (this) today, myself.

Passed the Béchamel sauce Bechdel Test, obviously. But right at the beginning.

Cruiser, and various emtwined off-shoot observations:
Spoiler:
I assumed that it had hit the outlying limestone stacks, out by the Shield Of Obscuration edge-thing. Probably an FX sequence left on the cutting-room floor.

(The plane had come through the boundary1 and flown about half way to shore, yet the dislocated tail-plane seems to then have drifted back out right to the edge, just in time for the ships' boat to discover, almost coincident with the transitional zone itself. I can't believe that was done so sloppily, without the intended exposition having been cut.)

1 I presumed, also, that the Obscuration thing normally did not let random people through it, always diverting them with an SEP Field. Diana had just done something God-Killerish, though, apparently something that makes her more visible to Ares, so maybe that caused the ages-old2 barrier to be permeable just as the rogue plane and its ship-borne pursuers were about to be edged around the hidden island3, and instead let them through the veil...
2 How old? Is there some sort of Narniaesque time-dilation, or has even child Diana been child-Diana for centuries or millennia? She hasn't aged much in the last century, so could be a mix of both.
3 The intro visuals might even suggest a "pocket planet", with only a tenuous portal-like link to any Earthly sea-area. The zooming down onto the cloud-and-sea planet just looked like someone took graphics/procedurally-generated clouds for a very small surface, then warped it around a smaller sphere to cover no less than 2π (and maybe all 4π) steradians. Thus it is perhaps that Diana's burgeoning powers (also the physical maturation?) directly keys into the ability to bridge over to Earth, as Zeus's original intention that his weapon can now go and serve its purpose...


I liked it, in general. Yes, I did think that...
Spoiler:
...Ludendorff was Ares, at first, and the 'amyl nitrate'-like sniffing stuff maybe gave his mortal body the memories of his past godhood (Maru being in on the reality, maybe even a distaff (and chemical) version of Hephaestus). But I think I clued in on the hints that he was not Ares slightly earlier than the scriptwriters intended, and then the question of who was... Well, Maru herself actually was the obvious choice for a fleeting second, but it didn't add up enough to the scrutiny of second-thoughts, and then I settled on "someone on the British side". And really that could only have been one person (only one person of significant position had been introduced). And it was. The Tropes were strong, with that one.That he had been the "peace at all costs" person was exactly the right bluff to look behind.


It suffered, though, by a bit too much "super vs super" combat sequemce in the climax. Good cutting between the antagonist/protagonist main sequence and the more 'mundane' battles by the mortals, but still too much "hey, this is all basially CGI, so we can have whip-panning/follow-shots/dolly-zooms galore, without having to worry about actual dolly-tracks or the physical capabilities of flesh-and-blood grips in manhandling the bulky cameras.

But that seems like the norm, these days. Boringly so. (An illusionist who produces a rabbit out of a hat demonstrates skill, even if you half-guess the trick, whilst if it were an actual magical magician who just magicked the bunny out of nowhere... Well, where's the fun in that? Unless he pretends to be doing a conversely more mundane illusion. Then it gets complicated. Basically, I'm saying that they should make more CGI that actually looks like live stuntwork. Give or take some embelishments, maybe, but then it looks impressive for looking like they've overlaid effects on live action.)

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby cephalopod9 » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:41 am UTC

I liked it.
I liked it better than the Nolan batman movies, and better than Avengers 2 and Civil War.

It felt like it got to drop some of the baggage that's been weighing down earlier DC movies. Makes me want to see Aquaman more than I want to see Justice League.
Soupspoon wrote:It suffered, though, by a bit too much "super vs super" combat sequemce in the climax. Good cutting between the antagonist/protagonist main sequence and the more 'mundane' battles by the mortals, but still too much "hey, this is all basially CGI, so we can have whip-panning/follow-shots/dolly-zooms galore, without having to worry about actual dolly-tracks or the physical capabilities of flesh-and-blood grips in manhandling the bulky cameras.

Agreed, the climax was muddied, structurally and thematically.
I don't think it's a spoiler to say it's a little incongruous to tell and anti-war story with a character whose main action is charging in to fight. There's a pretty high body count.

Spoilers for this and Guardians of the Galaxy 2
Spoiler:
I think they could have made more of the destroyed sword.
She kind of just gets up and tries harder, without much of a conflict resolution besides that.

I think there's a happy medium somewhere between WW's "villain has his say, never mind just keep on fighting" trajectory, and Guardians 2's "villain's clearly evil and comically against the hero's morals"
I mean, it's more than okay for Guardians to be uncomplicated or kind of silly. There's just no real internal conflict, we know what matters to the hero and why this idea is horrifying and unacceptable.
In Wonder Woman, it doesn't feel like either set of ideals really lines up with the conflict at hand.


It's also weird where Wonder Woman left
Spoiler:
Dr. Poison. Feels like they maybe spared her for sequels? She is a cool villain. but also pretty close to pure evil.

Earlier scenes do such a good job showing the costs of war for everyone, and immediately following the climax, the enemy soldiers are human beings again. There's not a reason to stop on her as a symbol of humanity

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:39 pm UTC

I don't know - she punches, I don't mind that at the end of the day she punches her way into victory. That's pretty standard.

Re: your second spoiler:
Spoiler:
I think her type of evil was more "I'll disregard human life for the sake of my research", not as much "I want to kill people". She didn't initially understand the evil guy's plans for killing all the German command dudes, for example. I think she just went along with it. Doesn't make her a good person, but there's a difference between that and pure evil.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:32 pm UTC

You just made me remember the Hollywood Chemistry thing I noted, at the time...
Spoiler:
Being hydrogen-based, rather than chlorine-based (I think it was) doesn't make it easier to get through gas-masks,
nor automatically highly flammable. Compare water with hydrochloric acid - the water is probably not more pervasive and definitely not more flammable... (Maybe try hypochlorous acid, as a half-way house?) And how does straight ethane compare with 1,1,1 trichloroethane? (ans: swaps some of its flammability for a greater hazard to health and some instability). And hexachloroethane would be better than (hexahydro)ethane in poison gas stakes, if not in a fuel/air-bomb scenario.

Also the gas they were using (whatever it actually is - the equivalent conversion to that of diethyl sulphide instead of mustard gas, presumably) seemed to have an unusual ability to crack glass, rather than (perhaps) acidicly attack it, or just enveigle the imperfect seals and/or pass through a respirator's activated carbon filter. Outside of stressed-glass (not likely, in those times and applications, e.g. relatively ordinary windows, except in their 'live'-testing fume cupboard and that sphere-thing) that's an odd mechanism for a RL chemical effect to make itself known by.

But it's Hollywood, it didn't have to make sense. It'll be Handwavium Hydride, or some derivative. I get that. :P

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:49 pm UTC

I understood some of those words.

Spoiler:
As far as handwavey terrible weapons go, it's much more believable than what we see in other, more modern movies. Obviously because,
as you wrote, it's based on an actual existing weapon.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:01 pm UTC

(The greatest Great War weapon in fiction, BTW, is the one from...
Spoiler:
Image

...and, no, I don't mean the helicopter. That only ended up being there because of cheaty-timey-wimeyness ;))

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:19 pm UTC

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:05 pm UTC

On the whole I liked it, but there were lots of little things bugging me about the movie. The two main ones:

Spoiler:
1.) I've never understood the whole "protagonist must be kept clueless at all costs, or else there's no story" trope (Cf. the powerful ruby slippers worn by an ignorant Dorothy throughout most of The Wizard of Oz), but that trope seemed particularly inane in this movie. How, exactly, did not knowing much about Ares, including the fact that he was actively searching for her in order to kill her, help to keep Diana safe? At first I thought, "Okay, maybe Ares is like Voldemort and able to know when people were using his name or something"...but if that were true, one would think Diana's mom would at least warn her about what NOT to do to attract attention from her potential murderer. But no, she lets her precious, sheltered daughter go out into a hostile world to ask strangers a lot of attention-drawing questions. Great parenting there, Mom.

2.) Ares was ridiculously average in the physical beauty department--not only in his WW1 incarnation, but also in the flashback to his younger, god-murdering incarnation. My daughters and I couldn't stop laughing at him in that flashback. Then again, maybe reactions like ours are what turned him into a homicidal (and theocidal) maniac in the first place, so maybe the non-stereotypical casting actually works from a plot standpoint after all.

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:48 am UTC

Um...
Spoiler:
1. It's pretty explicitly stated they hid her history from her since knowing so could awaken her ~powers~ and that
would draw Ares. I agree that once she decided to leave the island, her mom should have told her "Oh BTW you're the weapon, not the sword", seeing as how they did have a conversation. I suppose there's a chance her mom didn't know this either...

2. I don't get this complaint - you mean he's supposed to be a god and isn't pretty? Ares was never depicted as a particularly attractive god, so I don't really get this...
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:06 am UTC

Spoiler:
So, you're saying that traditionally, Aphrodite was attracted to Ares's irresistible...sense of humor? Thoughtfulness? :)

Greek sculptors seem to have thought Ares was reasonably athletic, as one might expect from someone who enjoys swords and javelins and such. They also seem to have left off his mustache. Fortunately, this film has corrected that.

EDITED TO SAY: Wait! I forgot about the flabby, mustachioed Mars in that famous Velásquez painting. That's probably what the film was trying to evoke, rather than the ancient Greek depictions.


Did anyone in the movie specifically say that Diana would make Ares aware of her if she knew about (or used) her own powers? Huh. I totally missed that. All I remember is Hippolyta being worried about keeping Diana safe, and making vague but angst-filled "she must never know" noises.

At the very least, after the big blasty thing, someone should have said, "Hey, you've probably noticed that you've got superhuman powers, but don't use them or you'll attract the attention of this bad guy who wants to kill you." Minus any warnings whatsoever, Diana didn't see any reason not to keep doing superhuman things--e.g., when she did that impossibly huge leap onto the tower where the (apparently worthless) sword and other (less worthless) goodies were kept, and punched handholds into said tower (!) in order to climb up it.


Another thing that bothered me was why Antiope, who obviously knew at this point that Diana's superhuman powers were awakening (because she had just provoked Diana into doing that big blasty thing), died taking a bullet for Diana.

I can think of six possibilities. a.) and f.) seem most likely to me, but maybe it's supposed to be b.) or c.)?

a.) Maybe Antiope wasn't sure that Diana's just-emerging superhuman powers had awakened enough to help her survive a lethal wound yet, so Antiope wanted to spare Diana that wound just in case (or just spare Diana a great deal of pain).

b.) Maybe Antiope didn't want Diana to inadvertently attract Ares's notice by getting hurt badly enough to activate her innate superhuman self-healing powers. (Then again, when Diana's minor wounds spontaneously healed in front of the Amazon doctor, the doctor briefly looked a bit surprised and then just shrugged without saying anything, like it was no big deal and/or she had seen Diana's body do this before.)

c.) Maybe Antiope thought Diana would figure out that she was immortal if she survived a lethal wound, and Antiope considered keeping that secret from Diana worth dying for. (This doesn't seem likely to me. I could have understood Hippolyta dying to keep that secret from Diana, but this was Antiope, who had been pushing Diana to get "stronger" for a long time, against Hippolyta's wishes, and had indeed provoked Diana into doing the big blasty thing during training, shortly before the plane crash.)

d.) Maybe Antiope felt so guilty for having awakened Diana's powers through that big blasty thing, which may have triggered the invasion of the airplane and the Germans, that she wanted to atone by sacrificing herself? Nah, I don't think so.

e.) Maybe Antiope just acted instinctively without thinking, "Diana is immortal, and only another god can kill a god (a fact that I know perfectly well because it's the whole point of Diana's existence!), so I don't need to worry that the projectiles from this strange new weapon will kill Diana as it certainly seems to kill everyone else, and will probably kill me. Oops, I just threw my life away for nothing, but wasn't it a noble gesture?"

f.) Maybe the scriptwriters didn't think about any of this stuff at all, and were just going for the noble gesture for melodramatic effect.

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:27 am UTC

My take (related to your a-f thing)...
Spoiler:
They knew her as being the Weapon, did not know how, but did know that realising her powers would create a vibration in the æther, and that her powers (indeed, possibly her growing up from a child - still no idea about how time passes) instantiate themselves only upon training.

Child-Diana seems to be hard-wired to like combat, but her mother is cotton-wooling her. Either she doesn't notice (or doesn't realise in time) that she has grown up to be Teenager-Diana, but it fould also have been a realisation of this that led her to go and find her secret sparring sessions with auntie. Then, the process started, Adult-Diana comes into being.

And her reflex "energy shock" (as tipped over the edge) weakens the Shield (or else strengthens the Bridge) between the mythical isle and the Real World beyond, allowing (war) plane and then (war) ship to gain access, like there's no evidence that any prior world-of-man vessel has ever done before. (Alternately, the puncture was accomplished with the plane, something that had not been around on Earth long enough to have yet coincided with the.protective bubble/gateway/whatever, and the ships gained access due to proximity and/or the active pursuit of the plane keying them in enough to outfox the Obscuration Mist's psychobarrier that would otherwise edge them round that particular anomaly without noticing).

Diana's healing, BTW, I originally took to be Normal For Amazonia (at least as far as scratches are concerned, bullets to the guts looked fatal enough - I have more problems with the swinging down from the high cliff and somehow ending up only swinging slightly once hit by a bullet never even intended for that character). The physical perfection of the Amazons, even/especially those that engaged in seemingly constant sparring, indicate some sort of Iron Skin or Healing Factor. Maybe aided by Super Herb-Doctor treatments unique to that island. And it's certain that (if not functionally immortal) there's some degree of agelessness in the Amazonian genes. Would have to rewatch the opening marketplace scene, to be sure, but if their Queen hasn't aged much since the original times of the gods, it appears that there's something in the water (or air). That Diana ('gifted'by Zeus, in whatever way) has only just grown up is explanable by her genetics/mystical parentage, and the Queen and probably all the others are also clearly original "golden age" humans blessed with longevity and all the graces (Greek myths get confusing, though, maybe we're looking at post-Promethean or even post-Pandoran women... the battles of the gods with/on-behalf-of/alongside humanity feature at several junctures in the Golden/Silver/Bronze ages of man), with or without a Narnian Timeslip Effect around their island.

Anyway, I sort of get the idea that Diana's powers continue to improve, as she is tested. That she has learnt all she can (safely!) in Themyscira, that the rest is out of Hippolyta's hands and must be left to the outside world in a way she had wished never to be necessary and Auntie 'Ope (pun intended!) was sure still should be pepared for.

Knowing nothing of The Real World, nobody really knew what was going to happen. Maybe Zeus had a decent enough idea back in the pre-history of the setting, but that's gods for you, and he maybe just put together a Divine Swiss Army Knife package for Diana to somehow use however she needed to, including tweaks to her formative psychology that would now shy her away from combat and maintain a vestage of hope for humanity even when faced with discouragement. Which makes for a pretty good goddamn hero-type: adaptability; sense of justice; willingness to right wrongs; bouncebackability (both physical and mental)... All the standard clutch of superhero tropes, more or less.

Tell you what, though. The anticipation of mortar-shells (eerily accurate, but that's Germans for you) is something she would have had a hard time learning on the island. A bit beyond island-tech level of ballistics, so must be her innate preternatural talents. Ditto the machine-gun fire. (Although that was too accurate - machine-guns that did not fire wide enough a pattern were detuned, as their purpose was area-denial and a shield's-width cross-section of air would have been inadequate for the purpose. And it must have only been the recent land-grab around of that Belgian village that had stopped them using two or more separate MG emplacements able to "cross the streams" to saturate the area - and in a way that a single indistructable shield could not have helped with. But it's Comic Book Germans. Always efficient and organised in just the wrong way, and no more. :P)

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby cephalopod9 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:59 am UTC

Zohar wrote:I don't know - she punches, I don't mind that at the end of the day she punches her way into victory. That's pretty standard.
Oh, it is awesome seeing her punch her way to victory. The narrative and the ideas driving it just didn't quite click for me.
Re: your second spoiler:
Spoiler:
I think her type of evil was more "I'll disregard human life for the sake of my research", not as much "I want to kill people". She didn't initially understand the evil guy's plans for killing all the German command dudes, for example. I think she just went along with it. Doesn't make her a good person, but there's a difference between that and pure evil.

They definitely could have made a complex, Lady Eboshi, all sides are flawed but have relateable motivations,type of character but
Spoiler:
She's pretty clearly interested in hurting people, and not much else in her character is explored.
There's really not evidence that she's been mislead, or is just torturing prisoners to achieve some other goal, and that would kind of run counter to the "war comes from humans" major plot point.
Maybe "pure evil" is a little too philosophically absolute, but she's pretty unambiguously bad

Also, the action movie/ comic book trope of Character With a Name being a significant moral quandary even though Our Hero just put a sword through a few dozen goons who were also humans.

ObsessoMom wrote:
Spoiler:
Another thing that bothered me was why Antiope, who obviously knew at this point that Diana's superhuman powers were awakening (because she had just provoked Diana into doing that big blasty thing), died taking a bullet for Diana.

[...]
e.) Maybe Antiope just acted instinctively without thinking, "Diana is immortal, and only another god can kill a god (a fact that I know perfectly well because it's the whole point of Diana's existence!), so I don't need to worry that the projectiles from this strange new weapon will kill Diana as it certainly seems to kill everyone else, and will probably kill me. Oops, I just threw my life away for nothing, but wasn't it a noble gesture?"


I'm pretty sure that one
Spoiler:
Diana was The Only Child on the entire island for some thousands of years. I think it makes sense to reflexively protect her, even if she knew that child was an actual demi-god.

I don't think there's anything that suggested anyone but Hippolyta knew Diana was an actual demi-god,
or anything to say what being a member of the Greek Pantheon even means in this universe.

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:36 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:
Spoiler:
So, you're saying that traditionally, Aphrodite was attracted to Ares's irresistible...sense of humor? Thoughtfulness? :)

...


I can think of six possibilities. a.) and f.) seem most likely to me, but maybe it's supposed to be b.) or c.)?


Spoiler:
Regarding the first point - maybe traditionally women are expected to be beautiful but men don't have to face the same standards? Maybe the Olympian gods were all horndogs?

As for a-f, I think e is most likely - instinctive protection of her.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Diadem » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:10 pm UTC

Wait, what?

Spoiler:
What makes y'all say that she sacrificed herself for Diana. She was behind Diana when she was shot. It's not clear if the bullet was meant for her, or for Diana, but she did not jump in front of the bullet, nor could she have protected Diana if she had.

Besides, at that point no one on the island had seen guns or bullets. The whole point of that scene is that Diana had no idea what that little thing flying past her is, or what it can do. So jumping in front of a bullet to save someone wouldn't even make sense at this point in the story.

Heck, Diana is the one who actually can stop bullets, but she just looks at it curiously as it whizzes past.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:49 pm UTC

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Soupspoon, cephalopod9, Zohar, and Diadem. Reply to Diadem spoilered:

Spoiler:
Diadem wrote:Wait, what?

What makes y'all say that she sacrificed herself for Diana. She was behind Diana when she was shot. It's not clear if the bullet was meant for her, or for Diana, but she did not jump in front of the bullet, nor could she have protected Diana if she had.

Besides, at that point no one on the island had seen guns or bullets. The whole point of that scene is that Diana had no idea what that little thing flying past her is, or what it can do. So jumping in front of a bullet to save someone wouldn't even make sense at this point in the story.

Heck, Diana is the one who actually can stop bullets, but she just looks at it curiously as it whizzes past.


Yeah, Diadem, I found that confusing, too. She seemed to be behind Diana, yet she let loose that horrified yell of "Nooooooo!!!" and deliberately jumped into the path of a bullet which would otherwise have missed her (Antiope). Why? What did she think she was accomplishing, if not saving Diana? I'll have to watch it again when it comes out on DVD.

If you Google "Antiope bullet" you'll see that I'm not alone in concluding that Antiope was sacrificing herself to save Diana...or in concluding that Antiope was aware (at some level) that such a sacrifice was probably unnecessary, at least if the goal was to save Diana's life. I'm willing to accept that it was just an instinctual protective reaction. (When I'm driving and my 20-year-old is in the passenger seat, I can't help putting out my arm to "protect" her if I have to brake suddenly. We both find this amusing.)


Zohar, they've played pretty fast and loose with Greek mythology. I kept waiting in vain for this big reveal:

Spoiler:
Ares was traditionally regarded as the progenitor of the Amazons, and Hippolyta's father. Heh.


I realize that all these complaints are pretty minor, but part of the fun of watching a movie is picking it to bits afterwards. Two more little nits:

Spoiler:
That damn sword with no scabbard, that nonetheless never seemed to cut anything. Diana hid it at the party by just sticking it down the back of her dress--yet that flimsy fabric (or maybe her panties?) somehow held it in place. And when she rode a horse with the sword stashed that way, the point of it didn't stab the horse? Ooookay....

I also don't know how detailed knowledge of modern English, French, Chinese, etc., could penetrate the bubble, but not any knowledge of, say, gunpowder-related weapons. Those pages of the Chinese dictionary were missing?


But hey--movie magic and all that.

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:00 pm UTC

I'm not opposed to nitpicking, I just disagree with that specific one. :)
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:33 am UTC

I knew it. I fucking knew it.

Spoiler:
Mrs. Poison was Ares the whole time! Wait, it was the British guy?? Fuck. Oh well. I... almost... called it.

I'm glad that they handled the "divinity" thing to some degree. This isn't the first time Diana is a straight up goddess... IIRC she becomes the official God of War in the comics at some point. But I think I preferred it when she was simply "God-touched". But... as other people have mentioned in this thread... there seems to be a big theme of "God-slaying" going on throughout the DC-Murderverse. So Snyder is probably going for something like that...

So it wasn't my best preference. But... I'm happy that there's some degree of "Greek Gods and Mortals" going on here. I like that theme from the comics I've read.


It was a good movie. I honestly liked it more than a lot of Marvel's stuff, but my opinions are apparently weird.

ObsessoMom wrote:Zohar, they've played pretty fast and loose with Greek mythology. I kept waiting in vain for this big reveal:


Honestly... I thought that...

Spoiler:
With all the fucking lightning in the final scene, I thought the big reveal was that ZEUS was the God of War. Honestly, that was... wayyyyy too much lightning for Ares. I liked the "Metal Armor" motif and the sorta "Magneto" powers that were going on. But... Ares really shouldn't be throwing that much lightning around IMO.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:50 pm UTC

(Vague for antispoilery reasons.)

When the prior incumbent was around, he wouldn't have had eminent domain over the power but (like all of them not utterly stifled to a single constrained ability) probably get to 'dabble', so long as it wasn't (overtly?) against the official user's wishes.

These days... Well, the field is wide open.

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:53 pm UTC

Maybe you should just write your thoughts in a spoiler. I, at least, have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:13 pm UTC

Was fed up with (largely) undescribed spoilers. (I'm used to places using [spoiler=Label]Contents[/spoiler] BBCode, not currently possible here.) As I was following straight on, though, seemed unnecessary if I could avoid it.


However, if you insist:
Spoiler:
When Zeus was around, he gets ultimate control (or at least veto) over lightning usage. Ares would likely have a (delegated) usage of all the elements to fulfil his field of specialisation. Like he wouldn't be entirely unable to do a bit of raomance stuff, so long as Aphrodite did not object (or know to object) and/or counteract him.

But Zeus is gone, and even though ultimate control may still be out of Ares' (Ares's? Oh, I'll stick with the Biblical irregularity to the rule, being a god) reach, there's no father-god there to smack down the subordinate. Only whatever paranormal (and Plot) limitations apply to a given pantheonic figure to stop them from permanently walking around in a fizzing lightning cloud of their own making. And now Zeus's heir, who gets a sufficiently powerful counterusage of her own, if not first-strike capability.

(And I was also put in mind of Toph, from The Last Airbender, more than Magneto. Interestingly. Maybe a power (armour-making) that Ares should have had, or maybe would have only been 'under licence' from Hephaestus during the time of the Psntheon.)

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:47 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:
I realize that all these complaints are pretty minor, but part of the fun of watching a movie is picking it to bits afterwards. Two more little nits:

Spoiler:
That damn sword with no scabbard, that nonetheless never seemed to cut anything. Diana hid it at the party by just sticking it down the back of her dress--yet that flimsy fabric (or maybe her panties?) somehow held it in place. And when she rode a horse with the sword stashed that way, the point of it didn't stab the horse? Ooookay....

I also don't know how detailed knowledge of modern English, French, Chinese, etc., could penetrate the bubble, but not any knowledge of, say, gunpowder-related weapons. Those pages of the Chinese dictionary were missing?


But hey--movie magic and all that.
while I can't speak for sharpness, the #wwgotyourback thing on Twitter is proving the shape and weight concept sound.

As for your second bit - Same way Sphinx knows the capital of Spain is Madrid
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:46 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:while I can't speak for sharpness, the #wwgotyourback thing on Twitter is proving the shape and weight concept sound.

As for your second bit - Same way Sphinx knows the capital of Spain is Madrid


I've seen it claimed that she was wearing her armour under the dress so the blade wasn't a serious problem.

As for the knowledge thing, it's explicitly stated that the Amazons were given the gift of tongues (or whatever they called it) by the gods in order to fulfill their purpose.

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:20 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I think the film had dramaturgical problems. Feels like it was cut down or something. The morally (and visually) grey setting requires well written and interesting characters to work. As it stands, they're virtually absent from the film. The whole sitcom thing where Diana flounders around in London went on for longer than it needed to, I feel at the expense of pretty much everything else in the film. And a few of those scenes seems to have put in there just for the sake of looking good in a trailer.

Diana was always dull as a door nail, so I guess that's forgivable, but with just a few small adjustments, the supporting cast could have been largely improved. It's pretty obvious that the original Wonder Woman setting was the second world war, and not enough work was put into updating the characters and factions to make sense. The whole bombing london scheme is especially bizarre in this context. Even if that was technically possible, Russia is a bigger player, and France is more accessible.

Steve Trevor doesn't make much sense as is. He actions are congruent with having a serious personal grudge against Poison and Ludendorff, but this is never shown or even hinted. Giving him reasons for hunting them (literally) across the world could also serve to flesh out the villains and make them more, well, villainous. As he risks his life and career and sets out on his crusade, their villainy seems to be limited to attempting to develop slightly more powerful mustard gas, killing that one guy in the gas chamber, and attempting to retrieve a book that was stolen from them.

The rag-tag team of misfits that join them could also easily have been given some exposition.

Ares just seems absent. Most of the film he might as well not even exist. And then he just shows up and suddenly he's the main villain. That's just a waste. I'd rather prefer Jeremy Irons milking a giant cow than this sort of absentee antagonist.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:16 am UTC

About that absenteeism.

Spoiler:
The intention is kinda similar to what Marvel Comics did with Ultimate Thor at first - that is, much how the reader was kept in the dark on whether or not Thor was the Norse God or just a crazy guy with stolen tech, you, the viewer - at least from my viewing - are meant to spend the movie questioning whether or not Ares currently exists or even ever existed, and you're meant to believe humans are just warlike and Diana's whole quest is hopelessly naive. If they had video games, someone would have made a "You can't expect to beat the Big Bad Boss of the German army and win the war in one swoop" reference.

Having him chewing scenery in a couple of exposition scenes would ...y'know...make that impossible
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby You, sir, name? » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:21 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:About that absenteeism.

Spoiler:
The intention is kinda similar to what Marvel Comics did with Ultimate Thor at first - that is, much how the reader was kept in the dark on whether or not Thor was the Norse God or just a crazy guy with stolen tech, you, the viewer - at least from my viewing - are meant to spend the movie questioning whether or not Ares currently exists or even ever existed, and you're meant to believe humans are just warlike and Diana's whole quest is hopelessly naive. If they had video games, someone would have made a "You can't expect to beat the Big Bad Boss of the German army and win the war in one swoop" reference.

Having him chewing scenery in a couple of exposition scenes would ...y'know...make that impossible


Spoiler:
I don't think that sort of reverse scooby doo reveal where something seemingly mundane turns out to have been supernatural and mysterious all along works very well. It's a shame to waste mystery like that, since it's a quality that would have helped make the world more appealing and interesting if done correctly
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:07 am UTC

Thanks for your thoughts, rmsgrey and SecondTalon. That #wwgotyourback was interesting. Another explanation:

Spoiler:
Image

Still bad news for the horse, if she indeed rode it this way, and if the sword was indeed this long. (I seem to recall it as much shorter, but at this point I don't really trust my memory.)

I remain unconvinced that a dance partner wouldn't feel anything sword-shaped back there while dancing, though.

Image

Then again, the villain is too stiff and proper to ever consider copping a feel, so I guess her secret's safe.


rmsgrey wrote:I've seen it claimed that she was wearing her armour under the dress so the blade wasn't a serious problem.


I dunno. The blue dress really doesn't seem compatible with her armor. The blue dress shows cleavage:

Spoiler:
Image


The armor bustier's stylized eagle head (which doesn't look detachable) covers all cleavage:

Spoiler:
Image


The outfit she trained in has that stiff diagonal strap thingy coming across, but I suppose it could be just an accessory, and detachable:

Spoiler:
Image


rmsgrey wrote:As for the knowledge thing, it's explicitly stated that the Amazons were given the gift of tongues (or whatever they called it) by the gods in order to fulfill their purpose.


As I demonstrated rather embarrassingly further up this thread, I sure missed a lot of stuff that was explicitly stated in the movie. Clearly my level of attention wasn't what it should have been. My bad. Thanks. (My Google-fu fail of the day: I plugged in the search terms "amazon gift of tongues" just now, to quickly locate a discussion of that bit of dialogue in the film...and retrieved a bunch of Pentecostal Christian books for sale on Amazon.com. DOH! I really should have seen that coming.)

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:54 pm UTC

Oh yeah, he totally knows something is there. Some metal bar.

Is it a corset? Is it a brace? Man's polite enough to not comment on strange objects felt in a woman's dress.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Zohar » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:31 pm UTC

That was my thought as well - it could be mistaken for a bunch of things that women actually wear.
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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:58 pm UTC

But everyone knows that women are naked, under their clothes!

(As am I, making me a rather particularly-defined example of transvestite.)

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Re: Wander Woman

Postby Liri » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:24 am UTC

Finally saw it. ObsessoMom, I get what you're saying about Ares' appearance.
Spoiler:
it's the mustache


The shaved armpit kinda got me. Makeup is one thing, but why would they shave their armpits.
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