It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

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It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby OP Tipping » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:33 am UTC

It's fine. The jokes are generally funny, the fights are exciti ng, the characters are engaging. It's not _great_ but if you watch this movie and don't enjoy it, it's because you don't want to.

On the downside, the villain has nothing interesting to say, and I don't care about him any more than Doomsday. The DCEU have some work to do there.

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Re: Justice League

Postby OP Tipping » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:27 pm UTC

Two of my favourite parts:

1/
Spoiler:
Silas: I didn't think you were ready.
Victor: You didn't think they were ready to meet the monster.
Silas: You're not a monster...
Victor: It's funny that you thought I meant myself


2/
The look on Barry's face when he realises that
Spoiler:
Superman is fast enough to watch him as he runs past
.
Actually, the facework by Ezra Miller is pretty funny throughout.

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Re: Justice League

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:37 am UTC

Way better then Batman vs Superman. Not sure if better than Wonder Woman.
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Re: Justice League

Postby Zohar » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:15 pm UTC

Petition to rename thread to Just Us League
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Re: Justice League

Postby freezeblade » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:02 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Petition to rename thread to Just Us League


Seconded!
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Re: Justice League

Postby Raidri » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am UTC

Or how about "Just Ice League"?

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Re: Justice League

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:00 pm UTC

(Spoilers in that they are only technically spoilers if you both didn't see BvS and have no idea how comics work and also paid no attention to The Death of Superman in the 90s. So I'm not spoiling it)

It's the second best DCEU movie.

It's still a garbage fire that directly contradicts things we are told in BvS. This isn't retconning of restating something that happened five movies ago nor is it other characters staring things, it literally contradicts the preceding movie. Repeatedly.

For example, we're told the Mother Boxes woke when Supes died, and that it's waking is what prompted whatzisface to use it on Victor, creating Cyborg.

Yet BvS we see Wondy watching footage from some earlier time, prior to Supes dying as he wasn't dead when Wondy watched it, of a very active Motherbox creating Cyborg.

This isn't "Itchy hits the same rib twice producing two notes", it's a legitimate "Can't pay attention to what we did five minutes ago"

We also have Batman - fricken Batman - constantly rambling about how Superman was a beacon of hope and a noble figure. Which he is... in the comics, and when Reeves played him. He was pretty fucking far from it in the prior two movies where, at best, he was just a demigod stranger no one had quite figured out.

Wondy was still the best part, Victor and Barry were good, Arthur was a middle-aged surfer fratboy, and Batman and Clark were just awful.

Boom Tubes looked way too much like the Bifrost, should have kept the classic design and .. as much as I hate loud noises in films... they are nicknamed BOOM tubes for a reason.

And the whole thing still had the problem of trying to tell us "This isn't your dad's (Character), so throw out what you know!" while simultaneously hitting us with stuff that makes no damned sense unless we're relying on (Character) being more or less the same as your dad's (Character). I can't even narrow it down to just one character - all of them.

Still the second best of the five movies. Still a garbage fire of ... I don't even know who to blame here. Snyder? Executive meddling? Focus groups? Fanboys? I don't know.

At least Superman actually saved people, and the - clearly added in as a reaction to BvS - kid interview with Supes showed that ... yes, they can do a Superman. They just didn't want to until it was too late.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:24 am UTC

Yeah, it's a lot less dark and edgy than BvS or MoS. I thought they did the characters pretty well provided you've never seen BvS so only have a garbled account of what happened in that movie rather than having seen the characters there to compare them with this movie's versions.

Reports say the movie owes a lot to executive meddling, and a bonus extra to Zack Snyder's family issues having called him away from the movie with just a rough cut finished - so they replaced him with Joss Whedon who then did a bunch of reshoots and changed the story up some.

Apparently Cavil had a contractual mustache when they were doing reshoots - though I can't tell which scenes looked weird and unfamiliar because they'd CGIed out the facial hair, and which looked weird and unfamiliar because he actually looked happy and confident rather than uncertain and harried.

I'm quite happy to pretend that BvS was a much better movie and this is the sequel to that version rather than the one we actually got, so I enjoyed the movie overall.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Angua » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:10 pm UTC

So, it was kind of meh.
Spoiler:
At some points I was really wondering whether I was watching a cartoon for kids though ('You smell nice' I don't not not like you' 'I bought the bank'). I really loved the opening bit with the interview - the question about the hippopotamus and then the kid going 'but hippopotamus are the most deadly' was super cute. I liked the bit with batman just getting the Flash to focus on saving one person first and you know he's going to save them one at a time but I thought that was really well done. The callback to brunch as the penalty for losing at the end was also pretty good.

I did find myself wondering when Supes became such a beacon of hope for the world, you never really got that impression in the first two? Also, Martha was pretty much 'Clark just do what you want, you don't owe the world anything' in MoS and BvS so I really didn't care about her at all in this movie? She added literally nothing. Also, he was massively OP compared to the rest of them at the end. I'm telling myself he caught up to the Flash because Barry was clearly running more South than East at the beginning.

Getting a bit of light on WW having a phobia of leading and people dying because of it as the reason for her disappearance was insightful, so I'll give them that?

The CGI was pretty awful. Steppenwolf reminded me of the Architect from Dragon Age - he looked like him and kept going on about 'mother' to boot. The suits for flash, aquaman and cyborg were absolutely terrible whenever they moved.

I wish the joke end credit scene had actually been Aquaman talking to a fish. I'm kind of disappointed that never happened.
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Re: Justice League

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:(Spoilers in that they are only technically spoilers if you both didn't see BvS and have no idea how comics work and also paid no attention to The Death of Superman in the 90s. So I'm not spoiling it)

It's the second best DCEU movie.


It is indeed. It's clearly significantly below WW, but it's not on par with BvS/Suicide Squad. Yes, yes, damning with faint praise.

It is wildly off-putting how much they insist on dark, gritty superman being Jesus. It seriously undercut the rest of the team having relevance. Seriously, if they'd worried less about him showing characters up at their shtick, and everyone constantly reminding you how very, very important he was, he'd be way less obnoxious.

It feels as if Wedon tried desperately to patch together something coherent out of an utter mess, and ended up just getting to "eh, okay I guess".

The villain is remarkably forgettable. It's roughly akin to the Avengers threat. Only without Loki. Or the giant space-worms. Or enemy vehicles. Yeah, that's about right.

Batman/Flash was indeed great. That felt genuinely like what a superhero movie ought to be. I wish there was a bit more time on Flash and Cyborg, both of whom had brief, but good stories going on, and less time dwelling on Supes.

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Re: Justice League

Postby Diadem » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:(Spoilers in that they are only technically spoilers if you both didn't see BvS and have no idea how comics work and also paid no attention to The Death of Superman in the 90s. So I'm not spoiling it)

It's the second best DCEU movie.


It is indeed. It's clearly significantly below WW, but it's not on par with BvS/Suicide Squad. Yes, yes, damning with faint praise.

Saw this yesterday, and I pretty much agree. The movie had its moments, and it certainly was a lot better than BvS or SS, but it was still not very good. The villain was terrible. That makes 4/4 now for terrible villains in the DCEU. Marvel doesn't always have great villains either, but the DCEU villains are just consistently terribly boring. Even the only good movie in the DCEU (Wonder Woman) was dragged down by having a very bad villain.

I can't wrap my head around the decision to name the villain Steppenwolf either. First of all, how is that not a major trademark infringement? Secondly, what a weird name for a villain like this. He doesn't look at all like a wolf, doesn't behave at all like a wolf, and he's supposedly from hell which is pretty much the opposite of a steppe. It's not exactly a scary name either.

Ah well, enough about the villain. The movie overall was still decent, I thought. A little better than the critics made it sound, but certainly nothing exceptional. Wonder Woman is awesome as always, the flash and cyborg were well done. Superman is just as terrible as he was in the previous two DCEU movies (they somehow made him so unlikeable), and Batman isn't much better. I didn't like Aquaman much either, he didn't seem to have much character. The interaction between the characters often felt a bit forced. You can clearly see that Whedon is trying to work his magic in some of the scenes, but he simply doesn't have enough to work with to make it work. Shame.
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Re: Justice League

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:34 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I can't wrap my head around the decision to name the villain Steppenwolf either. First of all, how is that not a major trademark infringement? Secondly, what a weird name for a villain like this. He doesn't look at all like a wolf, doesn't behave at all like a wolf, and he's supposedly from hell which is pretty much the opposite of a steppe. It's not exactly a scary name either.

He's been named that since 1972, and the name is apparently a common noun in German (what they call coyotes, apparently).
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Re: Justice League

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Superman is just as terrible as he was in the previous two DCEU movies (they somehow made him so unlikeable)

I had the opposite experience here - I left the cinema thinking "at last, a real Superman!" - he doesn't really fit with the character from MoS and BvS, but he is a lot closer to baseline Superman.

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Re: Justice League

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:36 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Diadem wrote:I can't wrap my head around the decision to name the villain Steppenwolf either. First of all, how is that not a major trademark infringement? Secondly, what a weird name for a villain like this. He doesn't look at all like a wolf, doesn't behave at all like a wolf, and he's supposedly from hell which is pretty much the opposite of a steppe. It's not exactly a scary name either.

He's been named that since 1972, and the name is apparently a common noun in German (what they call coyotes, apparently).

See also, Steppenwolf and a parademon from the Justice League cartoon, using an updated version of original designs.

('wolf is on the left. I point that out as it may not be obvious)

At any rate, he was the biggest sign that someone was trying to save the movie by getting away from New God weirdness.... but was unable to, y'know, completely rescript and rewrite the whole thing. So much of what Steppenwolf said only made sense because I was looking at it in the context of the Anti-Life equation.

Probably to avoid "Darkseid is just Thanos!" complaints... which are less complaints and more a statement of fact.

Or more accurately, Kirby's way of sending a "Fuck You" to Stan Lee.

(Short version - Jack Kirby worked for Stan Lee at Marvel and created Thanos and assorted characters. Kirby finally got sick of Lee's shit and jumped to DC.... where he promptly created the New Gods and related stuff, which includes Darkseid and Steppenwolf and so on)
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby mosc » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:33 pm UTC

They need to sit those executives in front of the batman and superman animated cartoons (not the justice league shit that came later) until they finally get it. This is what your characters are. You don't need to introduce them. Ignore prior shit and just give us the goods. Give us a superman who is totally obsessed with his close friends and family in a world that just can't accept him NOT being Jesus. Give us a batman that is corrupt but is well aware of the fact. One who only sees grey in everything and everyone. Have a Batman who resents superman's morality as inherently contradictory and a superman who cannot relate to anyone remotely disliking anything he does. Their main weaknesses are self-evaluation. Make interplay where they bring that out of each-other.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Zohar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

Justice League and Justice League: Unlimited were great!
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby mosc » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Justice League and Justice League: Unlimited were great!

What? Justice League: Unlimited they could have substituted batman and superman for Herra and Zeus. The episodes were like morality plays where wandering demigods learn how to behave like true heros in the human world before ascending back to mount watchtower. Puke.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:41 pm UTC

I mean, that's your opinion and it's subjective and all, but...

"I have no idea who this is" alone makes it worth it.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

Hah! I forgot about that bit, it was so good.
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Re: Justice League

Postby New User » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:For example, we're told the Mother Boxes woke when Supes died, and that it's waking is what prompted whatzisface to use it on Victor, creating Cyborg.

Yet BvS we see Wondy watching footage from some earlier time, prior to Supes dying as he wasn't dead when Wondy watched it, of a very active Motherbox creating Cyborg.

Time travel. No, that's not a real explanation, but it makes as much sense as the Flash showing up in Bruce's dream in Dawn of Justice.
SecondTalon wrote:We also have Batman - fricken Batman - constantly rambling about how Superman was a beacon of hope and a noble figure. Which he is... in the comics, and when Reeves played him. He was pretty fucking far from it in the prior two movies where, at best, he was just a demigod stranger no one had quite figured out.

But there was all that angel symbolism in Dawn of Justice.

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Re: Justice League

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 pm UTC

New User wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:For example, we're told the Mother Boxes woke when Supes died, and that it's waking is what prompted whatzisface to use it on Victor, creating Cyborg.

Yet BvS we see Wondy watching footage from some earlier time, prior to Supes dying as he wasn't dead when Wondy watched it, of a very active Motherbox creating Cyborg.

Time travel. No, that's not a real explanation, but it makes as much sense as the Flash showing up in Bruce's dream in Dawn of Justice.
SecondTalon wrote:We also have Batman - fricken Batman - constantly rambling about how Superman was a beacon of hope and a noble figure. Which he is... in the comics, and when Reeves played him. He was pretty fucking far from it in the prior two movies where, at best, he was just a demigod stranger no one had quite figured out.

But there was all that angel symbolism in Dawn of Justice.

I just embrace the fact that this Justice League is the sequel to a different version of Batman v Superman that never got made.

And you know who one of the best known angels is? The one they call Lightbringer. The Dawnstar. Lucifer himself. Not all angels are symbols of hope...

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Re: Justice League

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:08 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
(Short version - Jack Kirby worked for Stan Lee at Marvel and created Thanos and assorted characters. Kirby finally got sick of Lee's shit and jumped to DC.... where he promptly created the New Gods and related stuff, which includes Darkseid and Steppenwolf and so on)


Wait, didn't Dakrseid and the New God weirdness happen first, and Thanos was created by a completely different guy (Jim Starlin)?

I admit, I am no expert on all the bizarre behind the scenes stuff between Marvel and DC ripping of each other and trading artists around, so I could be wrong and/or misinformed.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:46 am UTC

Huh, No, I am the misinformed one.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:25 am UTC

Having now seen the movie, I appreciate that DC is really leaning into a lot of the crazy comic-book lore they've built up over the decades, rather than watering it down like Marvel seems to be doing. I just wish like, the movies were better. I wanna see more of DC's weird universe, with Marvel, I don't care as much about the world the movies take place in, I just like the characters and want to see them hang out together and beat up bad-guys more.

BTW, What's the deal with the mid- and post- credits scenes? I was under the impression that DC wasn't doing that shit, luckily I went to see this movie with friends and we ended up standing around in the aisle of the theater chatting during the credits or I would have missed it.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby OP Tipping » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:20 pm UTC

I've seen a few more times, and unlike some other movies it did not really improve with rewatching.
Batman v Superman is still the top DCEU flick, for mine. Wonder Woman, Man of Steel, Justice League would tie for second, and I didn't like Suicide Squad at all. I would really like to have seen Snyder's completed vision for this ar.c.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:34 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:Batman v Superman is still the top DCEU flick, for mine.

Holy shit, a bot. Goddamn that is some good programming to go this long without being noticed, but here we see the mistake.

Good game, Programmer. This AI is fantastic.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:22 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
OP Tipping wrote:Batman v Superman is still the top DCEU flick, for mine.

Holy shit, a bot. Goddamn that is some good programming to go this long without being noticed, but here we see the mistake.

Good game, Programmer. This AI is fantastic.


To be fair, there are a lot... okay, a few good things about BvS - there are some great shots, some frames that reference famous comics, an advert that, out of context, is fantastic, a great Batman action sequence, and some pretty good ideas behind it all. The fact that those ideas are lost behind terrible execution doesn't mean there aren't things to like in there too.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:44 am UTC

Yeah, but it's typical Snyder - Gets the look exactly right, even does things that are basically shot-for-shot remakes of the source, but completely misses both the point and the context of what he's copying, so he kinda moves it around and fails to see that it simply doesn't work divorced from the rest of the framework.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby maybeagnostic » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:26 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:... and some pretty good ideas behind it all.
Are there or are people just seeing whatever they want in the whole mess? Seems kind of like reading tealeaves- if you stare hard enough and bring enough outside information, it starts seeming like you can see something meaningful in it.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually seen BvS or JL.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:43 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:... and some pretty good ideas behind it all.
Are there or are people just seeing whatever they want in the whole mess? Seems kind of like reading tealeaves- if you stare hard enough and bring enough outside information, it starts seeming like you can see something meaningful in it.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually seen BvS or JL.


Part of it's a continuation of the themes of MoS - "the world isn't ready for you" - which plays out in a fairly obvious way with Batman's side of things. There's also a number of striking parallels between the first two thirds of Civil War and the first two thirds of BvS. The whole "Save Martha!" thing actually has a brilliant idea behind it - the coincidence of their mothers having the same first name being the shock Bruce needs to start thinking about the situation rather than sticking to the "that's too much power to be allowed to live" position he's doubled and trebled down on. The trouble is that the follow-through isn't there - they get Bruce to listen, but then don't actually say anything to address the "too much power" issue. Oh, and why does Clark phrase it as "Save Martha!" rather than "Save mom!" or "Save hostage!"? Unless he knows the name Martha is significant to Bruce and is thinking that far ahead, why would he say that name?

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby maybeagnostic » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:34 pm UTC

Well, I did watch Man of Steel and there was no coherent theme there to continue. It cycled through half a dozen possible themes and I am honestly convinced they were all evoked by accident through borrowing imagery and ideas without considering their meaning. It started out with the whole nature vs nurture idea that was ultimately a hot mess (Superman rejected nature in the face of Zod but accepted it in the face of Jor-El but also rejected nurture in the face of Pa Kent yet accepted it by murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent bystanders... no, wait... or... errr), then it made a huge deal out of coming-out-as-special which was ultimately meaningless because no one reacted to it, then there was a brief moment where Clark revealed he has extreme anger management issues, then it made a huge deal about not being able to trust the militarily even though they end up being totally supportive of Superman for no reason at all, then it had Louis uncover Clark's secret identity before he gets one (assuming he's trying to hide at all which is not at all clear), then we get to the point where Jesus has to make a nonsensical choice between eugenics+genocide and just genocide and if the movie hadn't devolved into enough of a soup of ideas, evocative imagery and shitty CGI punching suddenly it turns out killing Zod was a big deal although it is never made clear why.

Specifically to your point, "the world isn't ready for you" is not a theme of the movie at all. We never get to see any regular people react to Superman in any way during MoS so this is all based on some bullshit line from Pa Kent but that guy tells people to hide in an underpass when a tornado comes so you really shouldn't listen to him about anything. The few people we do see react (the Kents, Louis, the military) seem halfway between totally cool with it and totally disinterested.
rmsgrey wrote:why would he say that name?
I see what you did there! :D
T: ... through an emergency induction port.
S: That's a straw, Tali.
T: Emerrrgency induction port.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:49 am UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:Specifically to your point, "the world isn't ready for you" is not a theme of the movie at all. We never get to see any regular people react to Superman in any way during MoS so this is all based on some bullshit line from Pa Kent but that guy tells people to hide in an underpass when a tornado comes so you really shouldn't listen to him about anything. The few people we do see react (the Kents, Louis, the military) seem halfway between totally cool with it and totally disinterested.


Pa Kent is the obvious one. Perry White also weighs in. The military are divided at best - the Colonel (call sign "Guardian") is won over, but only after the battle of Smallville; the General appears to be neutral; Captain Exposition (she asks all the questions in the briefing so Dr Hamilton can explain things to the audience) seems to be in favour ("he's kinda hot") but the top brass are tasking drones to track him and the General is dubious of his ability to get them to accept Superman as "here to help, but it's got to be on my own terms". Lois is in favour of revealing Superman's existence until she meets him, when she decides to respect Pa Kent's advice and bury the story. The only real dissenting voices in the entire movie are Jor El and the priest who suggests that before trust can develop, someone needs to make a leap of faith.

It's also true that everyone we see actually react is fine with Superman once they get to know him - even Pete Ross goes from bully to well-inclined (and despite Pa Kent saying Mrs Ross was scared, she sure didn't come across that way as she was trying to proclaim divine intervention) - but the consistent message is "Oh, I'm okay with you being an alien with incredible powers, but the general public isn't ready for the news".

Maybe "theme" isn't the right word. "Leitmotif"?

To be fair, 48 hours ago, I would have been agreeing with you a lot more - then I rewatched the movie, and it's a lot better than I remembered - beneath the Michael Bay bullshit and the "I'm totally not copying this from Richard Donner" and the "hey, weren't those in the Matrix?" ("There are fields Neo, endless fields, where humans are no longer born; we are grown." - I rewatched that trilogy about a week ago) and the non-linear presentation there's actually a surprisingly solid story - opening of Superman The Movie (with added magic skull); Jonathan has two messages for young Clark as he grows up - "the world isn't ready for you" and "your parents sent you here for a reason and you need to find out what that is"; Clark wanders trying to stay hidden, looking for any hints as to why he was sent, and helping people in serious trouble, until he hears about something up north; Clark infiltrates the site, and discovers and claims a Kryptonian ship, finally getting the answers about his heritage (also crossing paths with Lois Lane) and a cool suit and learning how to fly. Lois tracks Clark back to the Kent farm but decides he's right to stay secret. Then Zod shows up and forces the situation - Clark turns himself over to humanity, who reject him and turn him over to Zod (along with Lois as a human specimen). In finest James Bond tradition, Lois and Clark use their captivity to learn of the villains plans for world domination and exactly how to thwart them, before escaping and thwarting the villains plans. When the dust settles, the military on the scene are grudgingly accepting of Superman's existence, all other (known) Kryptonians are dead/trapped (along with some military personnel and some civilian casualties) and Clark Kent gets a job at the Daily Planet.

Clark has done exactly what both his fathers wanted - he's kept his secret until he could find out why he was sent to Earth before making his choice as Jonathan Kent wanted, and he's stepped forward to serve as a beacon to humanity and chosen between humans and Kryptonians as Jor El wanted.

And then Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice happened.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby OP Tipping » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:44 pm UTC

Okay, okay. I'm not unaware that there are people who say BvS and did not like it. But most of its audience did like it, (about 63% per rotten tomatoes) and I' happen to be with the majority on this one, lucky me. I've watched it about six times, could stand to see it again, and I'm not a major rewatcher.

Here's what I like about it

1/ Affleck's Batman, just generally. Cynical, mature, actually smart, big and tough. Best Batman ever.
2/ Bruce Wayne's compassion, bravery and anger during the chaos of Kal -El's battle with Zod.
3/ The atmospheric tension as the police search Cesar's brothel for Batman.
4/ Bruce's interaction with Albert, best represented by their first discussion on the Kryptonite. "To keep it out of Luthor's hands. To destroy it." (shakes head)
5/ Most of Batman's fight with Superman, but especially when the Kryptonite is wearing off and Bats's face turns to "oh shit". And the mech suit.
6/ Batman's fight at the warehouse. Long shots, not jump cuts, just really well set up and executed.
7/ The music. Beautiful Lie. Wonder Woman's theme, Lex's theme (the Red Cape's are Coming). It's the one area where the DCEU has it over the MCU.
8/ Beautiful slow-mo shots like the Day of the Dead, or the first confrontation between the heroes, or the death of the Waynes. Actually, most of the visuals in the film. Snyder does some things really well.
9/ Wonder Woman, duh, though she doesn't get much screen time.
10/ Cute allusion: The sword at the museum is the one that Alexander used to cut the Gordian knot, which has become a figure of speech for an intractible problem, but as Diana says, it's a fake.
11/ Cute allusion: “If your sword is too short, take one step forward”
12/ Diana rolling her eyes when Lex talks about Prometheus, her cousin. :
13/ "Who pays for the drones that pass over our heads at night? One question begs another." And later "Do you know the oldest lie in America, Senator? It's that power can be innocent."
14/ Bruce's nightmare scenes.
15/ "Mother of God, is that the time?"
16/ Diana speaks of hiding away from the world of men following a century of horrors, but that century of horrors ended with WW1: a fair description of a period that also included the Civil War, the Crimean War,and the tail of the Napoleonic Wars . It was an interesting allusion given everything horrific that has happened since WW1.
17/ Lex's father was a refugee, apparently, raised in poverty, who built a business from nothing. He taught himself to read by "rooting through the garbage for yesterday's newspaper." He visited "fists and abominations: on Lex. A man who had a tough childhood, angry at his own child for having it easy and wasting his advantages and education. Lex maintains a veneer of erudition by making fairly accessible cultural references: to Streetcar Named Desire, to Lolita, to Greek mythology,
18/ I liked the darkness, the anger, the pain of the three main combatants. There aren't any quips, there's no break, it's relentlessly bleak. They really should have stuck with that. Were there a bunch of cute jokes to ease the tension throughout the Dark Knight trilogy? There were not.

What I'd change:
1/ Dial back Lex Luthor about 40%. I see what they were going for, I didn't hate it: he's high energy, eccentric, a bit traumatised by his father, but it would have been more effective if it were subtler.
2/ Sometimes Henry Cavill's performance is ... basically, not quite good enough. His expression looks like the expression of someone who is acting. The strained grunting noise that he makes at moments of physical stress is distracting. Not sure whether it is down to him or to the directing but it's a thing.
3/ Superman is supposed to be a genius (going by the comics). Sometimes, the Superman in this movie is a bit dumb.
4/ I'm not sure what could have been done about Doomsday. It's just a bit too amorphous, too vague of a threat. Better to think of it as a weapon wielded by Luthor rather than a villain,
5 About the "Martha" thing. The fact that their mothers have the same name is something that I'm not aware of being alluded to before, and it's reasonable to do something with it. I get what they were going for: it humanised Clark for Bruce, and made him reflect on what he was doing. Fine. But it was dealt with in such a heavy handed way that the weight was too heavy for the concept. Some things are better in the Ultimate Editions, but not this scene.

One final thing. Characters who use special talents invite the question "why don't they use that all the time?" Following Superman's time reversal in the movie Superman, we ask "Why doesn't he use that trick to solve literally any problem?" Why doesn't Dumbledore use the time-turner all the time?
Well this movie has a moment like that. Superman seemingly hears Lois in trouble from thousands of miles away, and flies over there faster than a speeding bullet and rescues her. Why can't he hear his mother in Gotham Port? He could sort all those guys out in a fraction of a second, less than their reaction time.
.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:20 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:8/ Beautiful slow-mo shots like the Day of the Dead, or the first confrontation between the heroes, or the death of the Waynes. Actually, most of the visuals in the film. Snyder does some things really well.


Sure, sure, it's a pretty film. That's not usually a complaint lobbied against it. Many of the shots are framed beautifully, and look quite nice. They just make no sense for the plot.

13/ "Who pays for the drones that pass over our heads at night? One question begs another." And later "Do you know the oldest lie in America, Senator? It's that power can be innocent."


See, this is pretty weird. Drones are not super important to the plot. It feels as if they sort of shoehorned in some kind of commentary on politics or something. It's part of the whole crazy-Lex theme, which...isn't really very in character. He ought not to be Jokeresque.

Additionally, it's a strange theme, because Superman *is* powerful, but...innocence is not really a theme. It's like a half finished thought. If you want to go with a "who watches the watchmen" theme for Superman...ah, but I suppose Snyder has already done that.

14/ Bruce's nightmare scenes.


Which end up being kind of odd. They're a touch out of place in the film, and serve only as universe building. Stopping the movie repeatedly to throw in teasers for the future is strange. Doesn't end up mattering anyways. The scene as shown doesn't appear in Justice League, nor is the dream mentioned.

17/ Lex's father was a refugee, apparently, raised in poverty, who built a business from nothing. He taught himself to read by "rooting through the garbage for yesterday's newspaper." He visited "fists and abominations: on Lex. A man who had a tough childhood, angry at his own child for having it easy and wasting his advantages and education. Lex maintains a veneer of erudition by making fairly accessible cultural references: to Streetcar Named Desire, to Lolita, to Greek mythology,


Fine as a background, but...Lex isn't who he ought to be. He isn't actually intelligent, he's just crazy. He's referencing cultural things, sure, but me listing a bunch of stuff isn't intelligence. Lex ought to behave more like this: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10360716/1/The-Metropolitan-Man

18/ I liked the darkness, the anger, the pain of the three main combatants. There aren't any quips, there's no break, it's relentlessly bleak. They really should have stuck with that. Were there a bunch of cute jokes to ease the tension throughout the Dark Knight trilogy? There were not.

2/ Sometimes Henry Cavill's performance is ... basically, not quite good enough. His expression looks like the expression of someone who is acting. The strained grunting noise that he makes at moments of physical stress is distracting. Not sure whether it is down to him or to the directing but it's a thing.


Pretty sure that's direction to blame, not performance. If someone says "act heroic", and you make a constipated face, there'll normally be corrections. He has no trouble, say, smiling in other works. It has to be an intentional director choice.

3/ Superman is supposed to be a genius (going by the comics). Sometimes, the Superman in this movie is a bit dumb.


Everyone just juggles an idiot ball around. They start out by what, framing superman for a shooting? That's insane.

But worse, Superman ought to be acting. It's okay if, somehow, the villain has set up something bad to happen that Superman didn't stop, but he ought to be trying. The explosion scene where he just sort of apathetically ponders everyone dying around him is pretty strange. Maybe he can't block everyone, but he ought to try to save some.

5 About the "Martha" thing. The fact that their mothers have the same name is something that I'm not aware of being alluded to before, and it's reasonable to do something with it. I get what they were going for: it humanised Clark for Bruce, and made him reflect on what he was doing. Fine. But it was dealt with in such a heavy handed way that the weight was too heavy for the concept. Some things are better in the Ultimate Editions, but not this scene.


It's actually an adaptation from a comic scene, if memory serves. Not a great choice here, but I think that's why they did it. They include a lot of nods to fans like the eyeball bullet shot from the older supes film. These are usually not great. I appreciate when things stay true to the characters, and make a faithful portrayal, but the wink and nod references seem to be...patronizing.

One final thing. Characters who use special talents invite the question "why don't they use that all the time?" Following Superman's time reversal in the movie Superman, we ask "Why doesn't he use that trick to solve literally any problem?" Why doesn't Dumbledore use the time-turner all the time?
Well this movie has a moment like that. Superman seemingly hears Lois in trouble from thousands of miles away, and flies over there faster than a speeding bullet and rescues her. Why can't he hear his mother in Gotham Port? He could sort all those guys out in a fraction of a second, less than their reaction time.
.


This gets worse in Justice League. So very much worse. Everyone else might as well just go home if Superman is around, apparently.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:19 pm UTC

OP Tipping wrote:Okay, okay. I'm not unaware that there are people who say BvS and did not like it. But most of its audience did like it, (about 63% per rotten tomatoes)


But not enough to turn out for the sequel.

It's been a while since I heard the figures, but wasn't it more like 30% than 60% of the people who turned out for BvS' opening weekend in the US who turned out for the JL opening weekend in the US? When it comes to putting money down, people don't seem to have liked BvS that much - or else the people who liked BvS on RT also heard about the problems in production and decided to stay away on that account...

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby OP Tipping » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:11 am UTC

See, this is pretty weird. Drones are not super important to the plot. It feels as if they sort of shoehorned in some kind of commentary on politics or something


Well right, it's presented as an example. However well intentioned, US military hegemony has a moral cost.

The scene as shown doesn't appear in Justice League, nor is the dream mentioned.


It's pretty clear that much of what Snyder had planned was abandoned but this isn't a fault of BvS, per se.

He's referencing cultural things, sure, but me listing a bunch of stuff isn't intelligence


Well right. Like I say, it is a veneer of erudition.

It's actually an adaptation from a comic scene, if memory serves.


Happy to be corrected but I don't think that's the case.
And I mean very happy to be corrected because I'd love to read that comic!

But basically I don't disagree with any of the complaints about the movie. I think that it is just that, for me, they aren't major enough to crush the good things in it.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby OP Tipping » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:15 pm UTC

Having rewatched it, I am now quite disappointed in the score.


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