It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

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It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby OP Tipping » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:33 am UTC

It's fine. The jokes are generally funny, the fights are exciti ng, the characters are engaging. It's not _great_ but if you watch this movie and don't enjoy it, it's because you don't want to.

On the downside, the villain has nothing interesting to say, and I don't care about him any more than Doomsday. The DCEU have some work to do there.

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Re: Justice League

Postby OP Tipping » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:27 pm UTC

Two of my favourite parts:

1/
Spoiler:
Silas: I didn't think you were ready.
Victor: You didn't think they were ready to meet the monster.
Silas: You're not a monster...
Victor: It's funny that you thought I meant myself


2/
The look on Barry's face when he realises that
Spoiler:
Superman is fast enough to watch him as he runs past
.
Actually, the facework by Ezra Miller is pretty funny throughout.

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Re: Justice League

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:37 am UTC

Way better then Batman vs Superman. Not sure if better than Wonder Woman.
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Re: Justice League

Postby Zohar » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:15 pm UTC

Petition to rename thread to Just Us League
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Re: Justice League

Postby freezeblade » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:02 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Petition to rename thread to Just Us League


Seconded!
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Re: Justice League

Postby Raidri » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am UTC

Or how about "Just Ice League"?

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Re: Justice League

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:00 pm UTC

(Spoilers in that they are only technically spoilers if you both didn't see BvS and have no idea how comics work and also paid no attention to The Death of Superman in the 90s. So I'm not spoiling it)

It's the second best DCEU movie.

It's still a garbage fire that directly contradicts things we are told in BvS. This isn't retconning of restating something that happened five movies ago nor is it other characters staring things, it literally contradicts the preceding movie. Repeatedly.

For example, we're told the Mother Boxes woke when Supes died, and that it's waking is what prompted whatzisface to use it on Victor, creating Cyborg.

Yet BvS we see Wondy watching footage from some earlier time, prior to Supes dying as he wasn't dead when Wondy watched it, of a very active Motherbox creating Cyborg.

This isn't "Itchy hits the same rib twice producing two notes", it's a legitimate "Can't pay attention to what we did five minutes ago"

We also have Batman - fricken Batman - constantly rambling about how Superman was a beacon of hope and a noble figure. Which he is... in the comics, and when Reeves played him. He was pretty fucking far from it in the prior two movies where, at best, he was just a demigod stranger no one had quite figured out.

Wondy was still the best part, Victor and Barry were good, Arthur was a middle-aged surfer fratboy, and Batman and Clark were just awful.

Boom Tubes looked way too much like the Bifrost, should have kept the classic design and .. as much as I hate loud noises in films... they are nicknamed BOOM tubes for a reason.

And the whole thing still had the problem of trying to tell us "This isn't your dad's (Character), so throw out what you know!" while simultaneously hitting us with stuff that makes no damned sense unless we're relying on (Character) being more or less the same as your dad's (Character). I can't even narrow it down to just one character - all of them.

Still the second best of the five movies. Still a garbage fire of ... I don't even know who to blame here. Snyder? Executive meddling? Focus groups? Fanboys? I don't know.

At least Superman actually saved people, and the - clearly added in as a reaction to BvS - kid interview with Supes showed that ... yes, they can do a Superman. They just didn't want to until it was too late.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:24 am UTC

Yeah, it's a lot less dark and edgy than BvS or MoS. I thought they did the characters pretty well provided you've never seen BvS so only have a garbled account of what happened in that movie rather than having seen the characters there to compare them with this movie's versions.

Reports say the movie owes a lot to executive meddling, and a bonus extra to Zack Snyder's family issues having called him away from the movie with just a rough cut finished - so they replaced him with Joss Whedon who then did a bunch of reshoots and changed the story up some.

Apparently Cavil had a contractual mustache when they were doing reshoots - though I can't tell which scenes looked weird and unfamiliar because they'd CGIed out the facial hair, and which looked weird and unfamiliar because he actually looked happy and confident rather than uncertain and harried.

I'm quite happy to pretend that BvS was a much better movie and this is the sequel to that version rather than the one we actually got, so I enjoyed the movie overall.

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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Angua » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:10 pm UTC

So, it was kind of meh.
Spoiler:
At some points I was really wondering whether I was watching a cartoon for kids though ('You smell nice' I don't not not like you' 'I bought the bank'). I really loved the opening bit with the interview - the question about the hippopotamus and then the kid going 'but hippopotamus are the most deadly' was super cute. I liked the bit with batman just getting the Flash to focus on saving one person first and you know he's going to save them one at a time but I thought that was really well done. The callback to brunch as the penalty for losing at the end was also pretty good.

I did find myself wondering when Supes became such a beacon of hope for the world, you never really got that impression in the first two? Also, Martha was pretty much 'Clark just do what you want, you don't owe the world anything' in MoS and BvS so I really didn't care about her at all in this movie? She added literally nothing. Also, he was massively OP compared to the rest of them at the end. I'm telling myself he caught up to the Flash because Barry was clearly running more South than East at the beginning.

Getting a bit of light on WW having a phobia of leading and people dying because of it as the reason for her disappearance was insightful, so I'll give them that?

The CGI was pretty awful. Steppenwolf reminded me of the Architect from Dragon Age - he looked like him and kept going on about 'mother' to boot. The suits for flash, aquaman and cyborg were absolutely terrible whenever they moved.

I wish the joke end credit scene had actually been Aquaman talking to a fish. I'm kind of disappointed that never happened.
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Re: Justice League

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:(Spoilers in that they are only technically spoilers if you both didn't see BvS and have no idea how comics work and also paid no attention to The Death of Superman in the 90s. So I'm not spoiling it)

It's the second best DCEU movie.


It is indeed. It's clearly significantly below WW, but it's not on par with BvS/Suicide Squad. Yes, yes, damning with faint praise.

It is wildly off-putting how much they insist on dark, gritty superman being Jesus. It seriously undercut the rest of the team having relevance. Seriously, if they'd worried less about him showing characters up at their shtick, and everyone constantly reminding you how very, very important he was, he'd be way less obnoxious.

It feels as if Wedon tried desperately to patch together something coherent out of an utter mess, and ended up just getting to "eh, okay I guess".

The villain is remarkably forgettable. It's roughly akin to the Avengers threat. Only without Loki. Or the giant space-worms. Or enemy vehicles. Yeah, that's about right.

Batman/Flash was indeed great. That felt genuinely like what a superhero movie ought to be. I wish there was a bit more time on Flash and Cyborg, both of whom had brief, but good stories going on, and less time dwelling on Supes.

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Re: Justice League

Postby Diadem » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:(Spoilers in that they are only technically spoilers if you both didn't see BvS and have no idea how comics work and also paid no attention to The Death of Superman in the 90s. So I'm not spoiling it)

It's the second best DCEU movie.


It is indeed. It's clearly significantly below WW, but it's not on par with BvS/Suicide Squad. Yes, yes, damning with faint praise.

Saw this yesterday, and I pretty much agree. The movie had its moments, and it certainly was a lot better than BvS or SS, but it was still not very good. The villain was terrible. That makes 4/4 now for terrible villains in the DCEU. Marvel doesn't always have great villains either, but the DCEU villains are just consistently terribly boring. Even the only good movie in the DCEU (Wonder Woman) was dragged down by having a very bad villain.

I can't wrap my head around the decision to name the villain Steppenwolf either. First of all, how is that not a major trademark infringement? Secondly, what a weird name for a villain like this. He doesn't look at all like a wolf, doesn't behave at all like a wolf, and he's supposedly from hell which is pretty much the opposite of a steppe. It's not exactly a scary name either.

Ah well, enough about the villain. The movie overall was still decent, I thought. A little better than the critics made it sound, but certainly nothing exceptional. Wonder Woman is awesome as always, the flash and cyborg were well done. Superman is just as terrible as he was in the previous two DCEU movies (they somehow made him so unlikeable), and Batman isn't much better. I didn't like Aquaman much either, he didn't seem to have much character. The interaction between the characters often felt a bit forced. You can clearly see that Whedon is trying to work his magic in some of the scenes, but he simply doesn't have enough to work with to make it work. Shame.
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Re: Justice League

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:34 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I can't wrap my head around the decision to name the villain Steppenwolf either. First of all, how is that not a major trademark infringement? Secondly, what a weird name for a villain like this. He doesn't look at all like a wolf, doesn't behave at all like a wolf, and he's supposedly from hell which is pretty much the opposite of a steppe. It's not exactly a scary name either.

He's been named that since 1972, and the name is apparently a common noun in German (what they call coyotes, apparently).
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Re: Justice League

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Superman is just as terrible as he was in the previous two DCEU movies (they somehow made him so unlikeable)

I had the opposite experience here - I left the cinema thinking "at last, a real Superman!" - he doesn't really fit with the character from MoS and BvS, but he is a lot closer to baseline Superman.

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Re: Justice League

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:36 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Diadem wrote:I can't wrap my head around the decision to name the villain Steppenwolf either. First of all, how is that not a major trademark infringement? Secondly, what a weird name for a villain like this. He doesn't look at all like a wolf, doesn't behave at all like a wolf, and he's supposedly from hell which is pretty much the opposite of a steppe. It's not exactly a scary name either.

He's been named that since 1972, and the name is apparently a common noun in German (what they call coyotes, apparently).

See also, Steppenwolf and a parademon from the Justice League cartoon, using an updated version of original designs.

('wolf is on the left. I point that out as it may not be obvious)

At any rate, he was the biggest sign that someone was trying to save the movie by getting away from New God weirdness.... but was unable to, y'know, completely rescript and rewrite the whole thing. So much of what Steppenwolf said only made sense because I was looking at it in the context of the Anti-Life equation.

Probably to avoid "Darkseid is just Thanos!" complaints... which are less complaints and more a statement of fact.

Or more accurately, Kirby's way of sending a "Fuck You" to Stan Lee.

(Short version - Jack Kirby worked for Stan Lee at Marvel and created Thanos and assorted characters. Kirby finally got sick of Lee's shit and jumped to DC.... where he promptly created the New Gods and related stuff, which includes Darkseid and Steppenwolf and so on)
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby mosc » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:33 pm UTC

They need to sit those executives in front of the batman and superman animated cartoons (not the justice league shit that came later) until they finally get it. This is what your characters are. You don't need to introduce them. Ignore prior shit and just give us the goods. Give us a superman who is totally obsessed with his close friends and family in a world that just can't accept him NOT being Jesus. Give us a batman that is corrupt but is well aware of the fact. One who only sees grey in everything and everyone. Have a Batman who resents superman's morality as inherently contradictory and a superman who cannot relate to anyone remotely disliking anything he does. Their main weaknesses are self-evaluation. Make interplay where they bring that out of each-other.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Zohar » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

Justice League and Justice League: Unlimited were great!
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby mosc » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Justice League and Justice League: Unlimited were great!

What? Justice League: Unlimited they could have substituted batman and superman for Herra and Zeus. The episodes were like morality plays where wandering demigods learn how to behave like true heros in the human world before ascending back to mount watchtower. Puke.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:41 pm UTC

I mean, that's your opinion and it's subjective and all, but...

"I have no idea who this is" alone makes it worth it.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby Zohar » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

Hah! I forgot about that bit, it was so good.
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Re: Justice League

Postby New User » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:For example, we're told the Mother Boxes woke when Supes died, and that it's waking is what prompted whatzisface to use it on Victor, creating Cyborg.

Yet BvS we see Wondy watching footage from some earlier time, prior to Supes dying as he wasn't dead when Wondy watched it, of a very active Motherbox creating Cyborg.

Time travel. No, that's not a real explanation, but it makes as much sense as the Flash showing up in Bruce's dream in Dawn of Justice.
SecondTalon wrote:We also have Batman - fricken Batman - constantly rambling about how Superman was a beacon of hope and a noble figure. Which he is... in the comics, and when Reeves played him. He was pretty fucking far from it in the prior two movies where, at best, he was just a demigod stranger no one had quite figured out.

But there was all that angel symbolism in Dawn of Justice.

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Re: Justice League

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 pm UTC

New User wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:For example, we're told the Mother Boxes woke when Supes died, and that it's waking is what prompted whatzisface to use it on Victor, creating Cyborg.

Yet BvS we see Wondy watching footage from some earlier time, prior to Supes dying as he wasn't dead when Wondy watched it, of a very active Motherbox creating Cyborg.

Time travel. No, that's not a real explanation, but it makes as much sense as the Flash showing up in Bruce's dream in Dawn of Justice.
SecondTalon wrote:We also have Batman - fricken Batman - constantly rambling about how Superman was a beacon of hope and a noble figure. Which he is... in the comics, and when Reeves played him. He was pretty fucking far from it in the prior two movies where, at best, he was just a demigod stranger no one had quite figured out.

But there was all that angel symbolism in Dawn of Justice.

I just embrace the fact that this Justice League is the sequel to a different version of Batman v Superman that never got made.

And you know who one of the best known angels is? The one they call Lightbringer. The Dawnstar. Lucifer himself. Not all angels are symbols of hope...

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Re: Justice League

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:08 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
(Short version - Jack Kirby worked for Stan Lee at Marvel and created Thanos and assorted characters. Kirby finally got sick of Lee's shit and jumped to DC.... where he promptly created the New Gods and related stuff, which includes Darkseid and Steppenwolf and so on)


Wait, didn't Dakrseid and the New God weirdness happen first, and Thanos was created by a completely different guy (Jim Starlin)?

I admit, I am no expert on all the bizarre behind the scenes stuff between Marvel and DC ripping of each other and trading artists around, so I could be wrong and/or misinformed.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:46 am UTC

Huh, No, I am the misinformed one.
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Re: It's Just Us, League. The DCEU is dead, here's its Tombstone.

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:25 am UTC

Having now seen the movie, I appreciate that DC is really leaning into a lot of the crazy comic-book lore they've built up over the decades, rather than watering it down like Marvel seems to be doing. I just wish like, the movies were better. I wanna see more of DC's weird universe, with Marvel, I don't care as much about the world the movies take place in, I just like the characters and want to see them hang out together and beat up bad-guys more.

BTW, What's the deal with the mid- and post- credits scenes? I was under the impression that DC wasn't doing that shit, luckily I went to see this movie with friends and we ended up standing around in the aisle of the theater chatting during the credits or I would have missed it.
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