The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim : Bacon Workshop

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Vaniver » Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:23 am UTC

Spoiler:
SirBryghtside wrote:And then there's the whole Coprus thingy. Remember, Coprus was invented by Ur himself - so there's likely no Azura meddling possible.
Except Divayth Fyr is the one that deals with that- while it's implied being the Nerevarine is what lets you survive his treatment, it's not necessarily correct.

guale wrote:I don't remember anything being said about Vivec only being able to show Nerevar how to use Wraithguard.
Yagrum Bagarn is able to attune you to Wraithguard, so you don't need Vivec.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SirBryghtside » Fri Dec 31, 2010 5:54 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I'd say I just found the 'panic over, guys'.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:The_Lost_Prophecy

...Star-blessed hand wields thrice-cursed blade...
Line 6-7: 'Star-blessed' suggests Azura, the Daedra Lord and patron of magic, fate, and prophecy.

Basically, Azura IS guiding you. That's a given. The only thing that could distinguish the PC from Lord Nerevar reborn would be his soul, or whatever carries over in the incarnation. So either Azura's slightly screwed up the prophecy by doing it in the same way as she was supposed to, but a couple years early, or you are the Nerevarine.

Your pick.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby psion » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:44 pm UTC

Spoiler:
That only says that an outlander will come, aided by Azura, to defeat Dagoth Ur. It doesn't say that said outlander is the reincarnated Nerevarine. I'm confused as to how you see that as definitive proof.

Anyway, I like the idea that you aren't the Nerevarine. There's a theme that all the gods are just as fallible as anyone else. Azura and the Box. That there's nothing truly divine, but that "divine" is just a word to describe what the higher beings do.

Honestly though, I imagine that Besthesda did intend for you to be the Nerevarine.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SirBryghtside » Fri Dec 31, 2010 6:56 pm UTC

Spoiler:
psion wrote:That only says that an outlander will come, aided by Azura, to defeat Dagoth Ur. It doesn't say that said outsider is the reincarnated Nerevarine. I'm confused as to how you see that as definitive proof.

Anyway, I like the idea that you aren't the Nerevarine. There's a theme that all the gods are just as fallible as anyone else. Azura and the Box. That there's nothing truly divine, but that "divine" is just a word to describe what the higher beings do.

Honestly though, I imagine that Besthesda did intend for you to be the Nerevarine.

I didn't say it was definitive proof, though... just that it means that even if you're not Nerevar reborn, there's nothing really separating you from the actual one. The original statement was that it was Azura getting revenge, but she was going to guide the Nerevar anyway.

But I also like the 'you're not the Nerevarine' idea - it carries over the way that everything seemed fake. Isn't it almost a paradox that the prophecies were the thing that caused you to follow the prophecies?
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby guale » Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:39 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:
Spoiler:
psion wrote:That only says that an outlander will come, aided by Azura, to defeat Dagoth Ur. It doesn't say that said outsider is the reincarnated Nerevarine. I'm confused as to how you see that as definitive proof.

Anyway, I like the idea that you aren't the Nerevarine. There's a theme that all the gods are just as fallible as anyone else. Azura and the Box. That there's nothing truly divine, but that "divine" is just a word to describe what the higher beings do.

Honestly though, I imagine that Besthesda did intend for you to be the Nerevarine.

I didn't say it was definitive proof, though... just that it means that even if you're not Nerevar reborn, there's nothing really separating you from the actual one. The original statement was that it was Azura getting revenge, but she was going to guide the Nerevar anyway.

But I also like the 'you're not the Nerevarine' idea - it carries over the way that everything seemed fake. Isn't it almost a paradox that the prophecies were the thing that caused you to follow the prophecies?

Spoiler:
Nothing really paradoxical, it's just a standard self-fulfilling prophecy. My favorite interpretation is that you are not the Neravarine, just some guy that is relatively badass and Azura snatched you up for her purposes.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby EmptySet » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:21 am UTC

Spoiler:
The way I always read it, it didn't matter whether you were actually Nerevar or not. None of the prophecies actually say that you're Nerevar; the closest they come is saying that Azura will help you find his ring, Moon-And-Star. Plus the Ashlanders tell you that you're not the Nerevarine, but you may become the Nerevarine, which would be odd if you're supposed to be Nerevar in some objective sense. The impression I got was that the Nerevarine is whomever does the Nerevarine's job, and both Azura and the Emperor know this. So they push you in the right direction and give you a bit of help. If you fail, it doesn't matter; you're far from the first. If you actually succeed, people decide retroactively that you are the Incarnate. It's kind of like when you hold a duel, and whomever wins is declared after the fact to have been favoured by the gods because they were right, when in fact they were just a better swordsman.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SirBryghtside » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

I just realised how off-topic we all are :P

So I'll add this.

Check back here on January 6th to see the cover reveal, which is the beginning of an entire month of coverage devoted to Bethesda's latest potential masterpiece.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:19 pm UTC

We are, but.. there's not really much to go on at the moment, so.. Morrowind it is.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:01 pm UTC

Bah. It's just gonna be Fallout 3 with swords.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby MisterCheif » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Bah. It's just gonna be Fallout 3 with swords.


In a new engine.

And anyway, wasn't Fallout 3 supposed to be "just Oblivion with guns"?
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:42 pm UTC

MisterCheif wrote:
You, sir, name? wrote:Bah. It's just gonna be Fallout 3 with swords.


[...]

And anyway, wasn't Fallout 3 supposed to be "just Oblivion with guns"?


That would be the joke.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Vaniver » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:21 pm UTC

Though, as I've said before, I think most people who play Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout will come out of it feeling like Fallout is the game the system was meant for, and Oblivion was Fallout with Swords. I also expect people would think that Fallout: New Vegas should have been Fallout 3 and Fallout 3 should have been Fallout: DC. Not sure if that's a trend or not.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Amnesiasoft » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:29 pm UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:Bah. It's just gonna be Fallout 3 with swords.

Clearly this means the next Fallout game is going to be Oblivion with guns with swords with guns.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby psion » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:43 pm UTC

It's been a long time coming for them to finally implement Gunblades. The community has had to mod them into every game in order for us to get the full experience.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Amnesiasoft » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:49 pm UTC

psion wrote:It's been a long time coming for them to finally implement Gunblades. The community has had to mod them into every game in order for us to get the full experience.

Personally, I'm waiting on the gunsword that shoots guns that shoot swords.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby poxic » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:53 pm UTC

With bees.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Bakemaster » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:14 pm UTC

Perhaps there will be available a Power Word: Guns spell which recreates the armament scene from the first Matrix film.

(Gunsword. Wokka wokka!)
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:16 pm UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:
psion wrote:It's been a long time coming for them to finally implement Gunblades. The community has had to mod them into every game in order for us to get the full experience.

Personally, I'm waiting on the gunsword that shoots guns that shoot swords.


Wouldn't that be very impractical? Why not simply a gun that shoots gun that shoots guns that shoot gunswords that shoot brother martin?

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby poxic » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:03 pm UTC

PROTECT THE EMPEROR!
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Amnesiasoft » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:17 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Wouldn't that be very impractical? Why not simply a gun that shoots gun that shoots guns that shoot gunswords that shoot brother martin?

Brother Martins that shoot Patrick Stewarts.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:11 am UTC

That shoot Number Ones. Who grow a beard at the enemy, causing them to swoon.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby poxic » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:40 am UTC

With bees.

/sorry. I'll stop now.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:That shoot Number Ones. Who grow a beard at the enemy, causing them to swoon.

win
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:10 pm UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby not baby Newt » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:38 pm UTC

(going back a week, the gunswordgun thing seems to have reached an end)

SecondTalon wrote:Better integration of the main story and the expansions would have been nice too. For example, the Tribunal Expansion ... kinda isn't integrated well. At all. Why?

Probably because all players were assumed to be continuing with existing characters that had already beaten the main quest. Worked very well at release.

Tribunal starts with a high powered assassin attacking in the night, wearing one of the better light armor suits in the game (iirc). This is another thing that didn't work very well for new characters - the chances of attack were lower at low level, and they probably had a weaker weapon... but still you'd be very well-equipped or very dead at an early point.

It basically boils down to I find their micro stories, told via sidequest or faction quests, to be far more interesting and engaging than their main story. It's.. kind of a problem that they've had for years.

In one part of the main quest some oral legend had been lost over time among the ashlanders, so you had to find some persecuted sect that had written things down long ago. I found this very neat. A bit of realism or plausibility or going outside stereotypic quest goals.

Also, custom made enchantments /spells with 40pt jump for 2 seconds rock for going places, but sometimes a bit immersion breaking for heavy armor characters.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:54 pm UTC

It was a nice variation on the "Go to the abandoned place and go all the way to the bottom to find the book that somehow survived after eons of being neglected" quest, yes. It was.. well, more real. A group of people continuing to survive and pass on their lore is far better than ancient scrolls in the library or whatever.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby EmptySet » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:19 am UTC

not baby Newt wrote:Also, custom made enchantments /spells with 40pt jump for 2 seconds rock for going places, but sometimes a bit immersion breaking for heavy armor characters.


Why is that immersion breaking? It is magic, after all. And you can effectively reduce the weight of your armour to nothing with enough Feather, or lift yourself and your entire inventory with Levitate, so it's not like there isn't precedent.

Mind you, I usually made an item with ludicrously high Jump and flew right across the continent in one leap. Once I had enough health, I wouldn't even bother with slowfall - I'd just take the damage, get a point of acrobatics for my trouble, and then heal the damage. It's mildly amusing to come crashing out of the sky at Mach 3 in the middle of a town, then casually go about your shopping.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby bisurge » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:05 am UTC

I always hated Morrowind's and Oblivion's attribute raising system. It just never made sense to me: you were rewarded for taking skills you never used as major skills because your attributes would get to 100 faster (remember monsters scale to level). I liked Fallout 3's system, though. I hope they don't recycle Oblivion's attribute system; I know I'm not the only one who was annoyed by it.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby not baby Newt » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:38 am UTC

EmptySet wrote:
not baby Newt wrote:Also, custom made enchantments /spells with 40pt jump for 2 seconds rock for going places, but sometimes a bit immersion breaking for heavy armor characters.

Why is that immersion breaking? It is magic, after all. And you can effectively reduce the weight of your armor to nothing with enough Feather, or lift yourself and your entire inventory with Levitate, so it's not like there isn't precedent.

In tend to think of characters as either light armor, acrobatic, stealth focused - or heavy armor, slower, better at upfront combat, stands firmly on the ground. I might avoid jumpery magics with the latter characters... for a while. Anything goes at higher levels.

Mind you, I usually made an item with ludicrously high Jump and flew right across the continent in one leap. Once I had enough health, I wouldn't even bother with slowfall - I'd just take the damage, get a point of acrobatics for my trouble, and then heal the damage. It's mildly amusing to come crashing out of the sky at Mach 3 in the middle of a town, then casually go about your shopping.

My computer paused and chugged and threatened to crash if I did that. Too much loading.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Xeio » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:03 am UTC

Yea, that was one of the biggest downsides of the magic system in Oblivion, they nerfed it so that you could barely even max things out, let alone do insane things like a fireball that hits the entire town at once, or enough jump to leap the continent.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby poxic » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:22 am UTC

They removed uberjumps and flying altogether so you couldn't (without cheating) jump over a city wall and wander around in the only-a-model version. That was annoying, but understandable. I think the nerfing of magic was because of lamer user complaints about an overpowered magic system in Morrowind.

/and then they removed mark/recall in the expansion so you wouldn't find out that they didn't implement m/r in Shivering Isles
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:30 am UTC

bisurge wrote:I always hated Morrowind's and Oblivion's attribute raising system. It just never made sense to me: you were rewarded for taking skills you never used as major skills because your attributes would get to 100 faster (remember monsters scale to level). I liked Fallout 3's system, though. I hope they don't recycle Oblivion's attribute system; I know I'm not the only one who was annoyed by it.

That's how they always did leveling. At least as far as the skills went. Attributes... I don't quite recall exactly. But I do like the method of SkillGetsBetterAsYouUseIt advancement.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby guale » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:35 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
bisurge wrote:I always hated Morrowind's and Oblivion's attribute raising system. It just never made sense to me: you were rewarded for taking skills you never used as major skills because your attributes would get to 100 faster (remember monsters scale to level). I liked Fallout 3's system, though. I hope they don't recycle Oblivion's attribute system; I know I'm not the only one who was annoyed by it.

That's how they always did leveling. At least as far as the skills went. Attributes... I don't quite recall exactly. But I do like the method of SkillGetsBetterAsYouUseIt advancement.

I like it as well. The complaint about being stronger by using non-major skills only really holds in Oblivion due to the horrible level scaling. Personally I liked it even better in Morrowind with Galsiah's Character Development which made your attribute raise naturally as your raised skills and effectively eliminated level-ups.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby Kag » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:11 am UTC

Having super high attributes is great, but it usually doesn't matter. Having a high skill in a thing means you will be good at that thing.

But yeah the leveling system needs badly to be reworked.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby EmptySet » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:29 pm UTC

guale wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:
bisurge wrote:I always hated Morrowind's and Oblivion's attribute raising system. It just never made sense to me: you were rewarded for taking skills you never used as major skills because your attributes would get to 100 faster (remember monsters scale to level). I liked Fallout 3's system, though. I hope they don't recycle Oblivion's attribute system; I know I'm not the only one who was annoyed by it.

That's how they always did leveling. At least as far as the skills went. Attributes... I don't quite recall exactly. But I do like the method of SkillGetsBetterAsYouUseIt advancement.

I like it as well. The complaint about being stronger by using non-major skills only really holds in Oblivion due to the horrible level scaling. Personally I liked it even better in Morrowind with Galsiah's Character Development which made your attribute raise naturally as your raised skills and effectively eliminated level-ups.


Yeah, I also like mods that make your attributes improve with use. With the one I'm currently using for Oblivion, every time you gain X attribute points (I forget exactly how many) you level up and pick three attributes to get an extra 1-point boost. No multipliers or anything. It's kinda nice because it lets you have some control, while still feeling natural, and not requiring you to screw around with weird skill selection. I like purely natural advancement too, though.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:12 pm UTC

poxic wrote:They removed uberjumps and flying altogether so you couldn't (without cheating) jump over a city wall and wander around in the only-a-model version. That was annoying, but understandable. I think the nerfing of magic was because of lamer user complaints about an overpowered magic system in Morrowind.

I think it was because of the loading screens for towns. They needed towns to be closed when you were walking around the real world. This drove their design in many aspects not the least of which was trying to limit the magic system so you couldn't leap/fly/climb over walls.
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby not baby Newt » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:56 pm UTC

poxic wrote:I think the nerfing of magic was because of lamer user complaints about an overpowered magic system in Morrowind.

You could do real awesome things. But magic was also useless as main damage dealer without heavy alchemy (ab)use. You needed a nap or potion after every other foe. No regeneration and no improvement in magicka efficiency with skill - these are nice improvements.

Oh, mark / recall was never in oblivion. My guess is that it would've let players mess up quest scripting. Bad for mass market appeal.

I'm not sure the silly attribute system hurt the game. Relaxed players do ok without caring, some obsessive players take pleasure from planning leveling strategies and grinding skills to achieve perfection. I found it painful.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:18 pm UTC

You could fast travel, and most markers for fast travel weren't too far from stuff you wanted to go to anyway, so there really wasn't a reason to have Mark and Recall in Oblivion. Unlike Morrowind, whose "Fast Travel" was either an abuse of Magic/Alchemy and Acrobatics or the Stilt Strider/Boat/Mage Guild transports, none of which serviced the Central parts of the map. Can't imagine why....
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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby guale » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:57 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
poxic wrote:They removed uberjumps and flying altogether so you couldn't (without cheating) jump over a city wall and wander around in the only-a-model version. That was annoying, but understandable. I think the nerfing of magic was because of lamer user complaints about an overpowered magic system in Morrowind.

I think it was because of the loading screens for towns. They needed towns to be closed when you were walking around the real world. This drove their design in many aspects not the least of which was trying to limit the magic system so you couldn't leap/fly/climb over walls.

That actually turned out to be entirely unnecessary. There is a mod which integrates all of the cities into the main worldspace and you get a hit of maybe 2 fps. It doesn't do the Imperial City though.

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Re: The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim

Postby EmptySet » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:49 am UTC

not baby Newt wrote:
poxic wrote:I think the nerfing of magic was because of lamer user complaints about an overpowered magic system in Morrowind.

You could do real awesome things. But magic was also useless as main damage dealer without heavy alchemy (ab)use. You needed a nap or potion after every other foe.


Untrue! You could also use magic as a primary damage dealer by shamelessly exploiting the magic system. You see, if you your intelligence is drained to 0 (eg. after chugging sujamma to carry stuff), when it goes back to normal you will have full magicka. So if, hypothetically, you just happened to create a spell which drained your own intelligence by 100 points for one second, purely by accident of course...

Mind you, it was generally better to have an arsenal of cast-on-use rings than actually cast spells anyway, since it takes a second to cast a spell, but you can fire enchanted items like a machine gun. Plus they recharge by themselves, though that's less of an advantage if you're using the Drain Intelligence trick.


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