EVE Online

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BlackSails
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:34 am UTC

Thats not an interceptor buff m8, except to like 1 or 2 niche uses

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Kulantan » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:18 pm UTC

As a Gallente/Amarr trained explorer, the Sisters of Eve ships sound perfect.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:26 pm UTC

Is a 6/10 worth running? I'd always assumed you won't get decent isk/hr unless you're doing 9/10 or 10/10.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Kulantan » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:36 pm UTC

Well its going to depend on the risk/reward and the clearing speed of the new ships. Doing 4/10 in highsec in a T3 was ok money before they stopped T3 entering.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:47 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Thats not an interceptor buff m8, except to like 1 or 2 niche uses

If by niche uses you mean flying in null then sure.

Combined with the time to warp changes I see myself flying lots of interceptors this winter
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:51 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Thats not an interceptor buff m8, except to like 1 or 2 niche uses


Scouting and tackling are niche uses?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:55 pm UTC

Alasseo wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Thats not an interceptor buff m8, except to like 1 or 2 niche uses


Scouting and tackling are niche uses?

Well not for many ships, but who would ever use an interceptor for that?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:38 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
Alasseo wrote:
BlackSails wrote:Thats not an interceptor buff m8, except to like 1 or 2 niche uses


Scouting and tackling are niche uses?

Well not for many ships, but who would ever use an interceptor for that?


Wat.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Ralith The Third » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:48 pm UTC

You missed the /s, Alasseo.

I hope.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:23 am UTC

No, I totally legitimately believe that Interceptors should never be used for scout or tackle. That's what dreads are for.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:00 am UTC

Oh, sorry, I didn't see that you weren't BlackSails at first. Mea culpa.

I hereby re-appropriate my "wat" and redirect it back at BlackSails.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:20 pm UTC

In most situations, bubble immunity doesnt help with either of those, and in some cases it hurts. Like if you are chasing a ship to a drag bubbled gate, you will land on the gate, the target will land 100km off.

Also, thats only the roles for the fleet ceptors. The combat ceptors are already weak enough that their role (killing tackle) due to the t1 frigate buff which makes every ceptor except the ranis die to all the t1 frigs. Ranis is still viable, but barely.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:50 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:In most situations, bubble immunity doesnt help with either of those, and in some cases it hurts. Like if you are chasing a ship to a drag bubbled gate, you will land on the gate, the target will land 100km off.

Also, thats only the roles for the fleet ceptors. The combat ceptors are already weak enough that their role (killing tackle) due to the t1 frigate buff which makes every ceptor except the ranis die to all the t1 frigs. Ranis is still viable, but barely.


Bubble immunity helps fantastically while scouting/tackling. Dead end system with 300 bubbles on the gate protecting that orca mining op? Whoops don't care. Going down a pipe looking for stuff, bubbles everywhere? you make it back to the fleet sooner. Jump into target system, hostiles camping the gate? Now you have a far better chance of making it out of the camp and keeping eyes in system instead of just holding cloak and burning back to the gate.

Which brings up the next bit: hello warp at 100km! Next gate 300AU from every other celestial? On a long roam with no good gate scans? No need to sped 15 minutes short-warping.. just warp the the gate at 100!

Besides, it's not just the bubble immunity, it's bubble immunity and warp accel increase. Interceptors will now intercept. Just.. leaving that there.

Combat ceptors need a bit of help, sure, but it's not quite as dire as you make it. Will a combat ceptor lose to a t1 frig fit as a frig-killer? Possibly, sure, depending on fit and skill and so forth. But a combat ceptor's job, as you noted, is clearing of hostile tackle. Random throwaway rifter tackle #341245135 will not be killing a claw, primarily because if the rifter does that, that means the rifter pulled at least one tackle mod (scram or web) off of its tackle target - depending on how long the ceptor survives, that may be just as good as killing the rifter (very situational of course, but it could be).

I suspect a very mild increase in hp when the changes proper come around, but I could be completely wrong. We might see a change in role definition for them. I'll take a wait & see on the combat ceptors.

Fleet ceptors need nothing besides a lock range increase. Warp accel and bubble immunity are huge, huge buffs.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:36 pm UTC

Alasseo wrote:
Combat ceptors need a bit of help, sure, but it's not quite as dire as you make it. Will a combat ceptor lose to a t1 frig fit as a frig-killer? Possibly, sure, depending on fit and skill and so forth. But a combat ceptor's job, as you noted, is clearing of hostile tackle. Random throwaway rifter tackle #341245135 will not be killing a claw, primarily because if the rifter does that, that means the rifter pulled at least one tackle mod (scram or web) off of its tackle target - depending on how long the ceptor survives, that may be just as good as killing the rifter (very situational of course, but it could be).


You could replace the claw with another rifter and it would do the job just as well. (better even, since webbing the tackle allows the real dps ships to hit it)

Edit: I once flew a point/scram stiletto against a fleet that had like 4 or 5 saders trying to kill me. They couldnt since stiletto is faster anyway, but every time they scrammed me I just counterscrammed and slowboated out of scram range. 2 mids is just bad.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Wed Oct 02, 2013 10:32 pm UTC

Well.. you got your ceptor changes. sort of. Link to actual post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.as ... ind=unread

Copypasting my post on alliance forums below:

Interceptors are changing much more than any of the above. The changes are much less straightforward, but I'll try to summarize as best I can before moving into some of the nitty gritty (check the link above for the full stats).

HIGHEST LEVEL CHANGES:
Everyone gets up to (theoretically) the level of the Taranis and the Stiletto respectively, without becoming clones.
Everyone loses significant cargo capacity to combat them being used as your go-to cyno ship (due to warp speed increase/bubble immunity).
Crow and Raptor are flipping roles, making a hybrid Raptor the combat ceptor and the missile Crow the fleet ceptor. Their bonuses/slots/etc appropriately change.
Ares becomes a split weapons hull, with 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level and 10% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile damage per level, and a 3H 2T/2L weapons layout.
Malediction is -1H +1L, and +armor HP, as well as adding LM bonus.
Everything else is to a greater or lesser extent more fiddly.

So, first, apparently Roden is going to start getting 'optional' missiles across the board, with the Eyno switching manufactures in the future away from Roden.

Next, we have the Crusader sticking with two mids, no optimal bonus, keeping tracking, but better fitting. Shaving some HP off too, but still beefy. The Maeldiction gets its rocket damage bonus switched to rocket/LM ROF. This amounts to a slight damage increase. The slot switch and armor HP increase will make it (able to be) rather beefier, but at the loss of its utility high.

The Crow and Raptor get complete reworks, so it's faster just to point you to the post. As quick as I can make it, the Raptor gets a +shield resist bonus, but only 3 mids, making it per CCP Rise "essentially a more shield and range oriented Taranis". Also per Rise: Compared to the Taranis it has a bit less HP, less damage and less tracking, but has advantages in speed, agility, and range. The Crow loses a high for a mid, and slows down with a MWD on.

Taranis is basically unchanged. -HP and -mass, both fairly small shaves. Ares is now apparently channeling old Minmatar, with the split weapons noted above. Gets a decnt amount of damage in gank mode, and gets LM kite otherwise. It loses base speed in exchange for -mass, making it faster with MWD on.

Claw gets an absurd amount of fitting, letting it fit 200mm ACs and a 400mm plate with some work, as well as the 4% DPS buff mentioned previously. Lock range is boosted heavily, and is yet another in the line of -mass buffs. Stiletto is basically unchanged except for -mass, making it even faster, because that's needed.

Now for a bit of commentary: The Crusader and Claw both remain at 2 mids, and while the Crusader gets a tracking bonus (and scorch) and the Claw can very easily fit arty, both are ships that desperately need range control and don't have it. The Raptor as a shield tanking 3-midslot hybrid-toting frigate has all of the issues and tradeoffs that go to that, though the resist bonus is at least something. LM Ares is..interesting, just in general. Why are they bringing back split weapons after working so hard to get rid of them? Odd.

Overall it's a very mixed grab-bag. Fittings seem like they need to be iterated on, and the Claw and the Crusader need something to make up for two mids. I guess the oversized fittings on the Claw is a bit of a sop, but I don't know that it's enough.

Lots of other stuff changing too:

Warp Speed and Acceleration: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.as ... ind=unread
Command Ship Models: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.as ... ind=unread
Electronic Attack Ship Changes: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.as ... ind=unread
SOE stats: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.as ... s&t=283120
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:20 am UTC

Looking at the two sisters ships, I don't see why anyone would ever use the frigate. Can't even fit a salvager on it once you've got your cloak and probe launcher. Although now that I wonder if they made the salvager unnecessary in mag sites and I just forgot about it.

Still, seems kinda weak compared to the cruiser.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:00 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Looking at the two sisters ships, I don't see why anyone would ever use the frigate. Can't even fit a salvager on it once you've got your cloak and probe launcher. Although now that I wonder if they made the salvager unnecessary in mag sites and I just forgot about it.

Still, seems kinda weak compared to the cruiser.


It is unneeded. Except in WH space, but you'd only use the SOE ship for bling factor in WH space anyways..
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:10 pm UTC

SoE Ships:

The frigate is meh, the cruiser is OP as hell (covops, tank bonused cruiser that gank fit can get > 800 dps). The frigate is basically an armor worm, which is not a particularly useful design.

Interceptors:
I welcome our new caldari interceptor overlords. Malediction gets a big win. Claw is still awful.

Warp Speed changes:
I have mixed feelings on this. It makes it very difficult to escape from a gang with interceptors, as they can warp and land ahead of you even on short warps. Also login traps with interceptors are able to lock a target 15s earlier.

EAFs:
Dear god, why. Do we really need more 75km webs and 110km jams in the game? Is that something people were crying out for?

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:SoE Ships:

The frigate is meh, the cruiser is OP as hell (covops, tank bonused cruiser that gank fit can get > 800 dps). The frigate is basically an armor worm, which is not a particularly useful design.

Interceptors:
I welcome our new caldari interceptor overlords. Malediction gets a big win. Claw is still awful.

Warp Speed changes:
I have mixed feelings on this. It makes it very difficult to escape from a gang with interceptors, as they can warp and land ahead of you even on short warps. Also login traps with interceptors are able to lock a target 15s earlier.

EAFs:
Dear god, why. Do we really need more 75km webs and 110km jams in the game? Is that something people were crying out for?


More or less agreed. I think the EAF bonuses need to be cut back for at minimum the Kitsune. Likely the Hyena (by a hair) and the Sentinel (by a hair) as well.

I think that not being able to run away from a fleet with interceptors is a good thing. Combined-arms fleets! Who would have thought?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

So I found a mod for EFT that includes the Rubicon changes, and I'm trying to fit up the Sisters cruiser. Anyone know what kind of tank I need to get for running a 6/10, which supposedly it can run?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:31 pm UTC

Depends on the 6/10, but I had no problem running them in a buffer tanked 100mn pvp tengu.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:57 am UTC

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah fozzie says ratting is for fools

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdQRyRZur8U
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:29 am UTC

Fozzie didnt make that video?

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:02 pm UTC

No, but he is the public face of the changes.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:31 pm UTC

I got most of the way through that video not sure what you meant, and then I realized how quickly he was landing and locking. Holy. Freaking. Crap. A lot of people are going to die.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:22 pm UTC

Can you run mods while jumping now?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:22 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Can you run mods while jumping now?


No. given how the server architecture is set up, I doubt that's ever possible.

You come through the jump cloaked, and you can't run modules then anyways.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:40 pm UTC

So I've always avoided SOMER Blink, but the latest RMT controversy got me looking at it, and I'm very confused.

On items that have value over about 2 bil, the payout is 89.5% of the ticket cost. If you take your winnings in blink credit, you get 5% extra, so now you have 93.975% payout. For every 1 mil you take in blink credits, you get a token. So lets say I bet just over 100 mil and win 94 mil + 94 tokens, down 6 mil but up 94 tokens. Now these tokens can be used for promo blinks. While there are better payouts, there are often 1 bil credit promos with 300 tickets. So I buy 94 of those tickets and win, on average 1 bil * 94/300 = 313 mil. 313 mil in exchange for something I 'bought' for 6 mil... that's a hell of a markup!

No way it can work like this, where did my math go wrong? (Maybe it's just that actually spending 94 tokens on 3x + promos would take 3-5 days?)

(It's actually not true that there's no way it can work like this, as promo blinks are limitted, but that would mean that players are sitting on tons and tons and tons of tokens)
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Re: EVE Online

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:34 pm UTC

mike-l wrote:So I've always avoided SOMER Blink, but the latest RMT controversy got me looking at it, and I'm very confused.

On items that have value over about 2 bil, the payout is 89.5% of the ticket cost. If you take your winnings in blink credit, you get 5% extra, so now you have 93.975% payout. For every 1 mil you take in blink credits, you get a token. So lets say I bet just over 100 mil and win 94 mil + 94 tokens, down 6 mil but up 94 tokens. Now these tokens can be used for promo blinks. While there are better payouts, there are often 1 bil credit promos with 300 tickets. So I buy 94 of those tickets and win, on average 1 bil * 94/300 = 313 mil. 313 mil in exchange for something I 'bought' for 6 mil... that's a hell of a markup!

No way it can work like this, where did my math go wrong? (Maybe it's just that actually spending 94 tokens on 3x + promos would take 3-5 days?)

(It's actually not true that there's no way it can work like this, as promo blinks are limitted, but that would mean that players are sitting on tons and tons and tons of tokens)

Players sit on tons and tons and tons of tokens. :)

Also, you are quite correct that Blink can be EV-positive if played optimally (from a 1b investment, counting achievement credit, you can get ~1.3b-1.5b EV payout, before even taking tokens into consideration). The vast, vast majority of people do not play Blink optimally. 89.5% EV payouts are, as you've noticed, expensive; the best you're normally going to do is the 79% EV payouts (5m+), and some will get lazy and go for the ~63% EV payouts (cheap stuff).

Promo tokens seem to average out to an EV of about 1 million - if you can use them all. In practice, promo blinks are slow enough and unpredictable enough that, after having deposited 1b for infini-promo blinks, cashing it out, then playing promo blinks for about three months, I still had several hundred tokens of my starting 1k left over. I'm currently sitting on 300+ nearly a year afterwards. This without any reinvestment through play, and having taken every promo blink I saw (while I was looking). If I was playing semi-regularly, there's no way I would be able to use tokens at anything like the pace I generated them.

And even otherwise, take a look at the time-efficiency. Say that the promo blinks are, as you mentioned, an EV of about 3 million apiece. If there's actually a promo up, it takes me about 15 seconds to refresh the page, notice the promo, scroll down to find an open slot, click it, eye the screen distrustingly, and refocus on what I was doing. This also requires refreshing the page to check it regularly - say that it takes me 5 seconds to do a normal check, and there's a promo going on 1/10 of the times I manually refresh.

That puts me at 3m/minute, or 180m/hour. Not bad, on a raw scale, but it involves frequently taking my attention away from what I was doing, isn't reliable, and can't have its throughput increased beyond the rate the promo blinks start up. Compared to that, I could do level 4 missions for 60m/hr, nullsec anoms/incursions for 100m/hr, W-space ops for 200m/hr...and I think the numbers I was using to generate that number used some fairly optimistic assumptions. If you take every promo, then the EV's going to be closer to 1m, putting you down at 60m/hour - not totally peasant-level, but not even remotely out-of-family with other ways to make ISK. Nothing is "free" money, least of all the time you have to invest in it. :)

Also, if you ever want proof that people are sitting on mounds of tokens, just take a look at the number of tickets on the Bonks sometime (EDIT: actually Minibonks, as Bonks use credit, but the point stands). People will buy tens of thousands of tickets at 5 tokens a pop. The EV on that is awful, but they can't use all those tokens on promos anyway, so why not?
Last edited by DaBigCheez on Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:10 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:47 pm UTC

Yeah, I did that calculation after my post as well. Might be a decent source of moderate income in the IGB while doing other things.

I wonder if it's against the EULA to bot Somer...

Also are the exact values where the buyout % changes tiers listed somewhere? I've got a decent observational estimate. And where do the buyout prices come from? They're usually well above jita (which is probably why everyone just gets isk/credit)
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Re: EVE Online

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:09 pm UTC

It seems like it's not strictly a tiers-based-on-value thing - I forget the exact examples I had in mind, but e.g. capitals hit the ~90% payout mark faster than skillbooks/subcapitals IIRC, probably because they're more of a pain in the neck for Somer to deliver so they want to incentivize cash payouts.

I don't think it's against the EULA to bot Somer - it's an out-of-game thing, after all. It will, however, get you banned from Somer without any compensation for any ISK you've already invested - and that includes relatively low-level botting like a refresh script to notify you when a promo's running, even without auto-grabbing a slot. They're very actively on the lookout for such things, in part because it'd make it so much easier to cash out promo tokens. :)

I think buyout prices are just set by hand whenever one of the Somer people gets around to it. And yeah, they probably aim a little high with those prices because delivering ships/skillbooks/modules/what have you is a lot more hassle than a "give money" command or changing a line in their own database.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:10 am UTC

So yeah, I actually went through all 192 items.

Below 5mil/ticket buyout is 67.5%
The other 8 spot acutions are all 79.5% (Tickets are all below 50 mil)

When tickets would hit 50 mil or more, the 16 spot auctions start (so 25 mil is the lowest ticket price here)

Somewhere between 43 (Orca) and 46.5 (PLEX) mil/ticket the buyout increases to 85.5%
Somewhere between 77 (Bhaal) and 32 (Mach) mil/ticket, the buyout goes DOWN to 77.5%
Somewhere between 128 (Thanny) and 165.5 (Rorqual) the buyout hits the maximum, 89.5%

That messed up 77.5 (my guess is this was meant to be 87.5 but there's a typo somewhere) includes all carriers, freighters, 3 marauders (Kronos managed to sneak in just under and still gets 85.5), Vindis, Machs, and Slave and Crystal Sets.

There are 6 exceptions to the above, including some but not all of the skill books. All of these are in the package category.

T3 Skillbook sets come in at the lowest buyout of 66.25% instead of the 67.5% its price suggests.
Dreadnought and Carrier skillbooks come in at 75% and 82.7% instead of the 79.5 of their price range.
The 3 Battlecruiser BPOs come in short at 79.1%, 79.3% and 71.3% for Tier 1, 2, and 3 respectively. The first two should be 79.5, the last should be 85.5

Also interesting is that the percentages I listed are exact (ie 75 = 75.0...) except for BC BPOs and Carrier skillbooks. Something's odd with them.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:48 am UTC

Double post, but Blink has one week before it has to stop giving bonuses for GTCs, and so they are upping the bonus 5x for the next week. Buy a GTC through blink, get 1 bil blink credits (on top of the usual 2 plex/2months game time you get for it)
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Negrebskoh
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Negrebskoh » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:48 pm UTC

Just read the Dev Blog on the new ISIS, and I think it's very well-designed. Opinions?

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Alasseo
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:50 am UTC

Looks neat.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:12 am UTC

Seems like a great feature for new players. For older folk I think we will at least enjoy the new certificate system.

Along the same lines of this idea I recently completed a spreadsheet that displays skills in a more visually logical way (started because I hated that gunnery support skills are interwoven with core system skills, which themselves are ordered by size instead of by type)

There's lots of improvements that can be made to make understanding skill progression better, and I think ISIS and mastery make great strides in that direction
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 12:17 pm UTC

Trailer for Rubicon. Not their best, but the drone deployment animation was pretty bitchin'.
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"But I like it
Because it is bitter,
And because it is my heart."

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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:53 am UTC

So I think it's time for me to try wormholes again. Anyone know a good corp for people with decent skills (40mil sp, all in combat skills, can fly legion and tengu) but no WH experience (except for a brief attempt at daytripping back when I was a terrible newbie that ended up getting me killed by swivelguy, yay for small worlds)
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Alasseo
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:02 pm UTC

Ye-es. With reservations, depending on what you want to do and how you like your corp culture.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:42 am UTC

Looking primarily for small-medium gang pvp, with the ability to pve to fund such activities. I happily grind pve, but it's to the purpose of having stuff to get blown up in.

As for culture, My goal is to get better, so people who can offer useful criticism is a plus. I'm ok with failing and can laugh at it but I don't want a culture where failing is a badge of honor. Older and more mature players are also a plus (30 years old here), but this is less important to me than a general attitude of wanting to do well
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