Neverwinter (MMO)

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed May 08, 2013 12:06 pm UTC

I don't like the pvp "performance" system. I kept 4 of them busy for 2 full minutes (using block, villain's menace, the regen powerups...) and aggravated them enough that one of them actually teabagged me (all of this won us the game), yet my performance bonus was mediocre.

Also my pvp teammates are also very often complete trash: maybe there is an ELO balancing system or someshit.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

As far as I know, its whoever gets in the Q in what order...no balancing at all other than everyone gets bumped to max level in your bracket...which doesnt help when your level 12 and your gear is crap, even though it bumps you to level 19.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Wed May 08, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

It amazes me that people release games that include pvp without a match making system, reward kills and damage only in pvp and worst of all don't have leaver mitigation.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed May 08, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

The game is only in Beta...but there are probably many things that wont be fixed/changed knowing who is making this..
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Wed May 08, 2013 4:14 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:The game is only in Beta...but there are probably many things that wont be fixed/changed knowing who is making this..

There isn't really an excuse for it at this point. Leaver systems have already been pretty thoroughly explored pick the one you like if you don't want to try out anything new. Just reducing leavers will increase their pvp community 3x. For a game that does some things so well it is unfortunate they do other things so poorly. They aren;t unique in failing at this though, Arena net doesn't have a leaver system either.
Last edited by Zcorp on Wed May 08, 2013 6:44 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Wed May 08, 2013 4:27 pm UTC

The company making the game ( I cant remember their name, but I have played other MMO's by them) seems to operate by making a functioning MMO and then leaving our everything that might make it decent. They are totally playing off of NWN and DnD for making their money, not quality.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri May 10, 2013 6:27 pm UTC

The descriptions of the Healer and Tank mechanic seem very very cool. Anyone try them?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Fri May 10, 2013 7:07 pm UTC

I have a low level cleric who is vastly less fun than my trickster rogue.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri May 10, 2013 7:36 pm UTC

Go on... How so?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat May 11, 2013 12:34 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:The descriptions of the Healer and Tank mechanic seem very very cool. Anyone try them?


Cleric is fun. Tanks can't keep aggro at all so you have all the adds on you at all times, and have to manage them with the rest of your team. This makes things a little bit frantic.
I just played my sister's cleric for a fight (mad dragon's lair or something) where her team kept wiping. It was pretty fun, between dodging the ton of demons trying to dogpile me, the crap the dragon sent in my direction and keeping demons rooted, pushed, stunned, and of course everyone alive. The fifth player DCed quickly into the fight but we still won by a hair's breath.
That said, I had never played cleric before, mad lair is reputed as horribly difficult, and we were a player short, yet I was able to keep everyone alive. Sort of. Maybe an experienced player with a fifth player wouldn't have had to down potions like a man water after a few days in the saharan. Maybe it would be trivial for him then. But I had a ton of fun.

By the way. Don't buy the jagged blade. 14K glory, blue, it must be terrific, right? Yeah well except it doesn't move in combat. This is an annoying bug, especially for a *sword*.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat May 11, 2013 12:39 am UTC

I played to lvl 5, and really enjoy it so far. Cleric feels pretty cool, and I love heals as a function of damage.

Learned that respecs cost ***10*** ***dollars***, which is MIGHTY disappointing. I hope they have a 'buy the game for a one time 50 bucks and get a gaggle of features' thing like GW2.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat May 11, 2013 12:44 am UTC

Try 200 bucks.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 am UTC

Well that's the ultimate pack; theres a 60 dollar one that gives you 600k diamonds, and I think respeccing is only like 300-500 or so?

It's still in beta, so, I'll probably just enjoy as is.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Sat May 11, 2013 3:05 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Well that's the ultimate pack; theres a 60 dollar one that gives you 600k diamonds, and I think respeccing is only like 300-500 or so?

It's still in beta, so, I'll probably just enjoy as is.

I'm not certain of this but my understanding is that a respect token is 600 zen. The current exchange rate at ~400 diamonds to a Zen puts respec at 240k diamonds.

And there isn't an option for a separate pvp spec, so want to spec to pvp and then change it for a dungeon? 12 dollars or 480k diamonds.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Amnesiasoft » Sat May 11, 2013 11:12 pm UTC

Based on the number of skills available and the number of skill points you are given, I suspect you can have all the skills you need for both PvE and PvP. Feats, no. But feats only cost AD to respec.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 12, 2013 10:00 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:Based on the number of skills available and the number of skill points you are given, I suspect you can have all the skills you need for both PvE and PvP. Feats, no. But feats only cost AD to respec.


"only"

At level 58 it costs 150 000 AD to respec.

"only"...

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun May 12, 2013 2:42 pm UTC

That's actually not that bad, given that you can fairly easily come across multiple thousand a day.

But that said, it's pretty easy to look over the abilities and get a sense of what you want to do. I'm speccing my Cleric for heals, and so lo, I should put points around accordingly.

Healing is pretty fun, as it's not just health bar tending, but there are two pretty significant issues with it presently. Firstly, targeting is a nightmare in a clusterfuck melee; there's no way to look at your party bar and say "Oh shit the tank is at half health, better select him from that mess of bodies", which removes a lot of strategy unless you're communicating with people and able to say things like "Tank you need to step out a moment so I can see you".

Secondly, class balance is borked; a tank popping pots often doesn't need a healer, and in a handful of skirmishes/dungeon runs, I've had my heals matched or exceeded by someone who was just routinely popping heal potions. That may be a product of being low lvl still, but it certainly makes the character feel more useless.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 12, 2013 2:53 pm UTC

Yes, a respec per 3 months of continuous play is perfectly natural.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun May 12, 2013 3:02 pm UTC

In two days I've put away about 8k astral diamonds. As a noob, that's a goodly amount.

The spec system is also not like WoW; you're not putting points into potentially poorly defined or not very useful abilities, you're putting points into 'more heal' or 'more damage'.

I agree that one respec per ~month or so is pretty unreasonable, but it's not as outlandish as you're making it out to be, nor is it likely as necessary.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 12, 2013 4:40 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:In two days I've put away about 8k astral diamonds. As a noob, that's a goodly amount.


Dude, aside from prayer, it doesn't go up as you level. That's also not a respec a month - that's a month's worth of ressources for a respec. Funny difference, that.

Also, the best pet is 500k AD. Want to save up for it? Why, that will only be a year of continuous play with no respecs!

Don't get me started on mount speed or enchants.

Edit: someone put it better than me

so basically, if you play monday to sunday not even missing a single day (quite unlikely) and always manage to get to the cap of ADs per day (even more unlikely), your looking at almost one month and a half just to get 2 bags, something that is absolutly free, menial and worthless in practically every other MMO on the market right now


if you factor in things like the clearly better companions, the fast mounts, the rest of bags and bank space, respecs and lets not even mention the wards to protect your enchantment effects, your easily looking at years worth of massive grind solely dedicated to circumvent the many inconveniences purposedly placed in your way.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Amnesiasoft » Sun May 12, 2013 10:15 pm UTC

Well, one, you do in fact get more AD as you level up (Dailies go to double, then triple rewards) for double/triple the work. Leadership looks like it also has a fair number of sources of AD, and you can sell decent gear you find on the auction house for AD. The maximum amount of AD you can get in a day is 24,000 (the refine limit). That means a 150k respect can be had in a week. Having a limit on your AD income would presumably indicate that you can, in fact, get more than that in rough AD in a day.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Sun May 12, 2013 10:27 pm UTC

At level 60 I still get peanuts for dailies, and they last hours.
Gauntelgrym PVP is at 4000 for 1 match, but I can't queue for them, this stuff doesn't seem in yet. There is also some various "Gauntlgrym" stuff at like 4000 and 2000.
Dungeon: 6000, they last long as fuck.
Daily PVP: 8000 for 4 matches
Skirmish is 6000 I think for 3 skirmishes
Daily foundries more or less the same IIRC.
All in all, hours of work for about 20000 AD

Leadership, at level 10, gives 2000 AD per day tops, depending on rares ("gather astral diamonds" is 400 for 8 hours, the rest is shit). You can unlock more slots (with achievements impossible without paid boosters...) but it's still gonna be eh.

Amnesiasoft wrote:The maximum amount of AD you can get in a day is 24,000 (the refine limit).


Good luck with that. It becomes a job if you put in that many hours.

Also the "pay2win" effect is ridiculous in pvp, with mounts going 3 times as fast as yours, people dismounting you with only one hit (thanks, Enchant DOT!), people stunning you with their armor when you attack them, etc.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Amnesiasoft » Mon May 13, 2013 8:35 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Leadership, at level 10, gives 2000 AD per day tops, depending on rares ("gather astral diamonds" is 400 for 8 hours, the rest is shit). You can unlock more slots (with achievements impossible without paid boosters...) but it's still gonna be eh.

It's 400 for 6 hours. 400 AD * 9 slots * 4 times per day per slot is 14,400 AD. The time it takes to complete the task can be further sped up with higher quality workers. With 2 Heroes for a +100% speed boost, you can Do 400 in 3 hours. 400 AD * 9 slots * 8 times per day per slot: That's 28,800, more than you can even refine in a day.

Yes, it's unrealistic to expect to be able to manage the leadership tasks every 3 hours, but 1) You literally do not even have to launch the game to do this, and 2) It's pretty reasonable to be able to do a few of your dailies so you don't have to.

Edit: Level 20 has a task that requires only permanent assets for 1600 in 12 hours. 3 times as long, but 4 times the AD. Requires even less micro managing than my previous example, gives you 28,800 AD/day before speed bonuses.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 13, 2013 11:53 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:You literally do not even have to launch the game to do this
Saywhatnow?
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon May 13, 2013 11:58 am UTC

It"s buggy as shit, by the way. Sometimes you can still use grayed tasks.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 13, 2013 12:13 pm UTC

Aha! Sweet!

Works fine for me MS. I have to ask, are you forgetting that A ) the game is presently free, and B ) it's still in beta?

Presently, I think the control wizards force choke like ability, and I believe the rogues ability lock out (not sure if it's the rogue that does that), are OP in PvP. At least the Cleric doesn't seem to have any anti-stuns.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon May 13, 2013 12:46 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I have to ask, are you forgetting that A ) the game is presently free, and B ) it's still in beta?


Yeah, like Dota 2 is in beta. This means not. They are selling shit, they have millions of players, they are not going to wipe characters. "Open Beta" is just a "fuck you, we don't want to spend time fixing bugs" term.
Also, TF2, Dota 2 are free and they do the cash shop thing right. Even Korean MMOs do the cash shop thing better.

the control wizards force choke like ability, and I believe the rogues ability lock out (not sure if it's the rogue that does that)


Both can be dodged or blocked (expect rogue smoke - cannot be blocked). Rogues seem to have several daze spells: some sort of jump slash, and a smoke bomb. Ray of Enfeeblement is the real problem with CWs.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 13, 2013 12:57 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:"Open Beta" is just a "fuck you, we don't want to spend time fixing bugs" term.
Haha, you are so wrong and so off...
Menacing Spike wrote:Even Korean MMOs do the cash shop thing better.
Shrug, look, if it's not working for you, by all means, walk away. I think, based on looking at how many ADs I'm churning out, and as Amnesiasoft explained to you, it's not as broken as you seem to think it is.

Menacing Spike wrote:Both can be dodged or blocked (expect rogue smoke - cannot be blocked). Rogues seem to have several daze spells: some sort of jump slash, and a smoke bomb. Ray of Enfeeblement is the real problem with CWs.
Ability lockouts that simultaneously slow you are pretty problematic. That said, Rogues and Wizards are pretty squishy.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon May 13, 2013 12:59 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Menacing Spike wrote:"Open Beta" is just a "fuck you, we don't want to spend time fixing bugs" term.
Haha, you are so wrong and so off...


Explain further, O Wise One, He Who Speaks The Word Of Perfect World Interactive?

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 13, 2013 3:52 pm UTC

Go read the forums; they're using the player base as giant pool of beta testers. As they should be.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon May 13, 2013 4:34 pm UTC

I disagree. They are diming and dollaring their "testers".

Well, moving on... anyone managed to kill that elder brain boss thing, with the tentacles and the ghostly bosses of previous zones? Maybe my groups just suck - but either I keep adds off the healer and the tentacle kills us all, or I tank the tentacles and the adds kill the healer. If the group is miraculously clever enough to protect the healer, we usually die at the ghost boss (unless we can push if off the cliff, then people go stand in the tentacle aoe and we die anyway).

This also costs a fortune in gold for potions.

Any tips?

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon May 13, 2013 6:24 pm UTC

In regards to the cleric, fighting just isn't as rewarding as it is on the rogue, no big moves and combat feels very point click and wait, and at least early on there doesn't seem to be a need for a healer so its a solo grind till say 20.

In terms of the AD costs in the game, as a solo player at 1-2 hours per day if that, ill never get enough AD to amount to anything so that is kinda disheartening.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Menacing Spike » Mon May 13, 2013 6:32 pm UTC

Well it's a beta and a free game so you can't complain.

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 13, 2013 6:43 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:Well it's a beta and a free game so you can't complain.
Awww, are your feelings hurt MS?

Drumheller769 wrote:In regards to the cleric, fighting just isn't as rewarding as it is on the rogue, no big moves and combat feels very point click and wait, and at least early on there doesn't seem to be a need for a healer so its a solo grind till say 20.
My impression is that as a healer, up to 20th (I'm only 21st!), I'm fairly unimportant as tanks can handle themselves with pots just fine. I'm hoping the necessity ramps up, but so far, just using the seal and able to keep most people topped off.

What's surprising is how in most encounters I've seen, and while I understand it's still low level, people seem unaware that there's a dodge, and are constantly getting knocked down/back by bosses and taking damage.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon May 13, 2013 6:44 pm UTC

Dont only rogue and cleric have dodge? (Btw cleric skate dodge is kinda cool)
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon May 13, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:Dont only rogue and cleric have dodge? (Btw cleric skate dodge is kinda cool)
If this is the case then I'll feel like an idiot. Do the other three get something instead?

EDIT: Wait, Wizards get that blink/teleport thing... GWF get a speed boost, which isn't the same but is similar-ish, and GFs get block, so... Ok, yeah.
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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby wumpus » Mon May 13, 2013 7:10 pm UTC

Drumheller769 wrote:Dont only rogue and cleric have dodge? (Btw cleric skate dodge is kinda cool)


No: wizards have dodge as well (they teleport). I think the rest do, but don't remember dodging with my greatsword fighter (first character, only got past the bridge).

A quick review:
Cleric: healing abilities far worse than just drinking potions (at least through 15 levels, groups seem to think they can heal). Moderate casting damage. I'm underwhelmed.
Wizard: Has both blasting and cc abilities, although both are fairly limited. Appears to mainly attack single targets (cleric can attack more at once), regardless of what the spell description says.
Rogue: Seems the most powerful (at least at levels <30). Limited attacks on multiple mobs (if they are close enough together your first encounter ability will attack more than one. You will be using that ability a lot for a long time). Extremely damaging on single mobs. Unstoppable once you have a cleric companion.
DPS fighter: meh, didn't keep him around. Uninspiring, the rogue appears to dispatch faster one at a time than the fighter can AOE them to death (and remember, dead mobs aren't damaging your, while a horde of mobs with one quarter health left still do full damage).

As far as respecing goes: you have no real options for levels 1-15 other than the order you gain certain powers. Your options between levels 15-30 are barely more noticable: I delayed taking feats due to ignorance and fear of the cost of respeccing, then didn't notice the difference once I had the feats. After level 30 you "choose" your paragon path (and can't even access the powers you have until you "choose" your path). "Choose" is in quotes as rogue (and I assume others) have only one paragon path so far, no idea when others will be available. See above flamefest on the cost to change said choice.

Yes, they say it is in Beta. I'm curious what has been fixed so far. A few exploits have been closed (foundry quests no longer give significant xp) a few accounts banned over said exploits. Rogues have been said to have been nerfed, although it seems subtle if so. I'll believe the line about "don't judge the beta" when clerics stop drinking healing potions like a drunken barbarian (judging from forum chatter that may have happened. Better log in with my cleric). I'm also curious to see if more work is done on grouping: I saw two quests that required grouping in 20 levels. Almost all the issues I see with grouping (getting enough of each trinity point, treasure distribution, ability of classes to handle trinity points (I think the cleric agro problem is fixed, not sure. My guess is they just aren't healing).

Maybe it was covered on page 1, but the game is so far from D&D (0-3.5 and cyclopedia) that you can forget about playing for that reason (unless you started playing with 4e). Forgotten Realms fans might like it (although I haven't yet had to shine Elminster's shoes), but I can't see the big draw. As an example of how far away it is from D&D rules: expect to level your wizard to level 5 in under 15 minutes, and have 750 hit points (no fireball spell for you! You are not a Thaumaturgist).

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Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Zcorp » Tue May 14, 2013 6:12 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I have to ask, are you forgetting that A ) the game is presently free, and B ) it's still in beta?
Game companies don't make games 'free' to be nice to their players, they use F2P models because it makes them more money, by abusing psychology to manipulate their players to spend more money. And it worked on you, you are excusing the abuse of their players, because you believe they are 'giving' something for free. However, for most of their players what they are giving is bad habits, impulses to purchase and enough frustration to get them to give them money. But at least they are doing that for free...right?

If you don't feel bad for the players abused by this model, feel bad for the great combat designers who crafted the good parts of this experience and then have to watch as PWE runs the game into the ground.

Enokh
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:55 pm UTC

Re: Neverwinter (MMO)

Postby Enokh » Tue May 14, 2013 2:02 pm UTC

Zcorp wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:I have to ask, are you forgetting that A ) the game is presently free, and B ) it's still in beta?
Game companies don't make games 'free' to be nice to their players, they use F2P models because it makes them more money, by abusing psychology to manipulate their players to spend more money. And it worked on you, you are excusing the abuse of their players, because you believe they are 'giving' something for free. However, for most of their players what they are giving is bad habits, impulses to purchase and enough frustration to get them to give them money. But at least they are doing that for free...right?

If you don't feel bad for the players abused by this model, feel bad for the great combat designers who crafted the good parts of this experience and then have to watch as PWE runs the game into the ground.


I like the idea that the company is somehow responsible for players having bad habits, and that an MMO company can actually abuse people via it's game simply by having a pay2win model.


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