How to respond to people who use "gay" pejoratively

[Eastwinn]

Any ideas? How do you guys call people out on it (if at all)?

I've been getting more and more sick of it. I've got some methods myself, but they don't seem to work very well on the highschool crowd. Trying to ask the typical highschooler to put themselves in another person's shoes is a lost cause. Sometimes I ask "Are you scared of gay people? Can you not handle someone who is different?" .. other times I ask them if they would take it personally if I called them "gay," and if yes, I would turn it around on them and argue that only someone who wasn't comfortable with their sexuality would take it personally. The latter is more effective because it's more insulting (but slightly hypocritical, depending on how you look at it). At least, it's more effective in silencing them but not instilling the idea that "gay" is not an insult.

[H2SO4]

I will just point out that if you are against the use of 'gay' as an insult because it offends a group of people, then you should also cut the use of the word 'God' in phrases like 'Oh my God!' or 'Swear to God.' Also the use of curse words in general. That offends a group of people, too.

[Izawwlgood]

I actually kinda dug the Wanda Sykes commercial, where she over hears a table of teens chatting. She goes 'Man, what would do if I said "Jeez, this salt shaker is so awkward-virgin-teenager-with-a-stupid-little-fuzz-mustache"
Not saying fight fire with fire, I just enjoyed the commercial.

[SecondTalon]

Izawwlgood, don't be so hetero.

[H2SO4]

See, that kinda stuff doesn't offend me. I actually find it funny. It's quite the sad attempt by those in/supporters of the LGBTQ community to get me all riled up.

[Certhas]

I've got friends who will immidiately follow up any use of the word gay in that sense (e.g. the second homology gorup of this space doesn't vanish? That's so gay.) with an excuse and meaning no disrespect to homosexuals.

Maybe we should just give up on using gay for homosexuals? It used to just mean happy anyways.

[SecondTalon]

See, that kinda stuff doesn't offend me. I actually find it funny. It's quite the sad attempt by those in/supporters of the LGBTQ community to get me all riled up.

It's.. uh.. not supposed to get you riled up. It's supposed to illustrate how stupid it is to use sexuality as a descriptor of quality.

Fucking hets.

[Izawwlgood]

Always with our 'Can I buy you a drink' and 'Wanna fuse gametes?'! It's disgusting.

[SecondTalon]

And I'm fine with them doing whatever behind a closed doors and all, but seeing guys kissing girls in bars? I didn't realize I was at a damn straight bar. Should have a damn sign on the door.

It's even worse when they hold hands in broad daylight. What if some kid saw that?

[Izawwlgood]

You know how bad it's gotten? I saw an ad that showed two of those breeders happily enjoying a product!

[SecondTalon]

Why can't they keep it on their own channel? Of course, I saw a movie where, with little warning, this guy and girl started making out and proceeded to have a love scene. I mean, what the fuck, I didn't realize it was THAT kind of movie. Sure, there weren't exposed genitals or whatever, but it was just way way too suggestive, even for an R rated flick.

[Eastwinn]

It's supposed to illustrate how stupid it is to use sexuality as a descriptor of quality.

Yup. This. Using "gay" as an insult makes you sound like an idiot. It's a terrible insult. How can you possibly take it personally? If someone says "You're ugly," they're really saying "I think you're ugly," which you can totally take personally. However, if someone says "You're gay," they must mean "I think you're gay," which makes no sense at all. Why not show some wit and think of something actually insulting to say?

[Weeks]

And I'm fine with them doing whatever behind a closed doors and all, but seeing guys kissing girls in bars? I didn't realize I was at a damn straight bar. Should have a damn sign on the door.

It's even worse when they hold hands in broad daylight. What if some kid saw that?

ST++;

[gmalivuk]

And don't even get me started on their obscene habit of carrying offspring around with them. I mean, it's not like gay men carry around a santorum-covered condom to show everyone they've had gay sex, so why do I need to see your advertisement to the world that you've had your disgusting straight sex?

[Vieto]

Indeed.

In fact, why don't we ban all straight marriage entirely?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtNpa8RrDk4

[ᴨ !314159]

And don't even get me started on their obscene habit of carrying offspring around with them. I mean, it's not like gay men carry around a santorum-covered condom to show everyone they've had gay sex, so why do I need to see your advertisement to the world that you've had your disgusting straight sex?

And I'm fine with them doing whatever behind a closed doors and all, but seeing guys kissing girls in bars? I didn't realize I was at a damn straight bar. Should have a damn sign on the door.

It's even worse when they hold hands in broad daylight. What if some kid saw that?

This is why the world hates the homosexual community. Do you really believe acting like that will change the public perception of homosexuals in a positive manner?

(or, for that manner, parading around half-naked)

Obligatory PC disclaimer: I'm against any public display of sexuality, or anyone rubbing their sexuality in people's faces. It's just that homosexuals seem to do that a lot more often these days.

[Certhas]

On another tangent, as recently overheard in a pub:

"He's all soppy like: I love her so much!!!"
"I know, totally gay."

[SecondTalon]

This is why the world hates the homosexual community. Do you really believe acting like that will change the public perception of homosexuals in a positive manner?

(or, for that manner, parading around half-naked)Obligatory PC disclaimer: I'm against any public display of sexuality, or anyone rubbing their sexuality in people's faces. It's just that homosexuals seem to do that a lot more often these days.

Yes. Because eventually people will connect the two and realize how bloody stupid they sound.

Also, I didn't know that half-naked parading and homosexuality were intertwined. Someone better tell New Orleans before the next Mardi Gras. Or any hangout of highschool/college kids on Spring Break. And swimming pools. Can't forget swimming pools and beaches.

Things people do to rub their sexuality in the faces of others -
*Procreate
*Mention their children
*Get married
*Have parties associated with said marriage
*Wear any jewelery that signifies marriage
*Casual mentions of spouse or dating partner
*Any and all discussions of dating
*Basically mentioning anything at all about one's private life

[Mighty Jalapeno]

For proper use of 'santorum' : +1 billion gay Internets.

[gmalivuk]

This is why the world hates the homosexual community. Do you really believe acting like that will change the public perception of homosexuals in a positive manner?

(or, for that manner, parading around half-naked)

Obligatory PC disclaimer: I'm against any public display of sexuality, or anyone rubbing their sexuality in people's faces. It's just that homosexuals seem to do that a lot more often these days.

Wow, good job at being a walking example of all the stupidest arguments people make to justify the fact that they get personally grossed out at the idea of buttsex, which they somehow can't avoid thinking about in graphic detail every time they see two guys holding hands.

[ᴨ !314159]

Wow, good job at being a walking example of all the stupidest arguments people make to justify the fact that they get personally grossed out at the idea of buttsex, which they somehow can't avoid thinking about in graphic detail every time they see two guys holding hands.

How is it "stupid" to assume two guys holding hands are a homosexual couple? And how did you get the idea that I claim there to be anything wrong with that?

[gmalivuk]

No, that's not what's stupid. What's stupid is that you use that as an example of rubbing your nose in their sex life. If they're having gay sex in front of you, then yes, that's rude. If they're holding hands, or a straight couple is holding hands or pushing their child in a stroller, and your mind immediately jumps to being grossed out by all the sweaty sticky sex they're having, then *you* are the one with a problem.

[TheAmazingRando]

I will just point out that if you are against the use of 'gay' as an insult because it offends a group of people, then you should also cut the use of the word 'God' in phrases like 'Oh my God!' or 'Swear to God.' Also the use of curse words in general. That offends a group of people, too.

This would be true if offensiveness was the reason it's bad to use "gay" as an insult.
It isn't. That's part of it, and FYI I do look down on people who use "Oh my God!" around people who might be offended by it. I never intentionally curse around people I think will be offended by it unless offending them is my purpose.

But, no, it isn't bad to use "gay" as a synonym for "stupid/useless/ugly/etc." because it might offend gay people. It's bad because it implies that all those things are aspects of homosexuality, which further enforces those parts of our culture that are hostile towards homosexuals. Hurting people's feelings is pretty inconsequential compared to reinforcing the mindset that leads to violence and discrimination against them. Same goes for racist and sexist jokes. A lot of people get so caught up on the idea of offense, but that isn't where the bulk damage lies.

How is it "stupid" to assume two guys holding hands are a homosexual couple? And how did you get the idea that I claim there to be anything wrong with that?

It isn't, but it's stupid to automatically think of buttsex every time you see it (which, if you get down to it, is the reason people get grossed out by seeing gay couples) in the same way it's stupid to see a baby and automatically picture the parents having sex.

Edit: ah, ninja'd.

[Hefty One]

Usually with passive disregard.

[Esperite]

My strategy so far has been to simply point how how baseless of an insult it is. Some general responses I give:
"How is that related to him/her doing X?"
"How would that make things any different?"
And other such stuff. That way I don't really say that they are being offensive, I'm just pointing out how stupid they look when they do it.

[Van]

This is why the world hates the homosexual community. Do you really believe acting like that will change the public perception of homosexuals in a positive manner?

(or, for that manner, parading around half-naked)

Obligatory PC disclaimer: I'm against any public display of sexuality, or anyone rubbing their sexuality in people's faces. It's just that homosexuals seem to do that a lot more often these days.

Speaking of things that won't change public perception in a positive manner, Exhibit A: coming to a rather logic-oriented, liberal place and then engaging in gay bashing. It's possible that you have a completely valid point and are just offering up your opinion, the fact still remains that many, many people have used that same line of thought ("I don't care what you do in the bedroom, just keep it out of my sight!") to engage in slightly less blatant homophobia.

More on topic, I'll usually say something along the lines of Esperite's comments, but I don't have a problem with saying "you're being a homophobic ass" if they try to defend it. Hilariously, this usually results in them thinking I'm gay, I mean, why else would I be defending them?

[ᴨ !314159]

Funny, I could've sworn this wasn't about bashing/defending homosexuals, but about the liberal usage of the word "gay" in the context of a general insult.

To get back on topic, the word obviously has many different meanings, and frankly it's a bit of a stretch to assume the "homosexual" connotation is assumed every time someone uses it as a general insult. It's just that, a general insult. Do you seriously believe any american teenager who uses it in that manner does so with a clear intention of being homophobic? It's not like homosexuals own that word.

And, to reiterate, I am not bashing homosexuals, and I've yet to see any argument to the opposite that doesn't amount to "you don't like gay sex, you are therefore a homophobe".

[H2SO4]

No, n, they DO. Also 'ignorant', 'bigot', and 'intolerant'.

[ᴨ !314159]

No, n, they DO. Also 'ignorant', 'bigot', and 'intolerant'.

"No" is not an argument, and neither are groundless personal insults.

[The Great Hippo]

To get back on topic, the word obviously has many different meanings, and frankly it's a bit of a stretch to assume the "homosexual" connotation is assumed every time someone uses it as a general insult. It's just that, a general insult. Do you seriously believe any american teenager who uses it in that manner does so with a clear intention of being homophobic?

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter what the American teenager's intent is when they use the word; it is what it is. And its pejorative use is an attack on homosexuality.

It's not like homosexuals own that word.

Irrelevant. It doesn't matter who owns the word. Ownership in no way mitigates what using the word as a pejorative implies.

People don't 'own' words anyway; they use them. And how they use them matters.

[zug]

No, n, they DO. Also 'ignorant', 'bigot', and 'intolerant'.

"No" is not an argument, and neither are groundless personal insults.

Maybe you could look up the dozens of threads that already exist about this argument, and how you're using the same old tired excuses that don't hold water? Go somewhere truly unenlightened if you feel the need to sow the seeds of your intelligence every which way.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

I'm against any public display of sexuality, or anyone rubbing their sexuality in people's faces. It's just that homosexuals seem to do that a lot more often these days.

Funny. Because random strangers intimidate me in the hallways if I so much as wear a scarf to school. If I were ever half as overtly romantic with a guy as my straight friends are so casually, I'd probably be fearing for my life on a regular basis.

I mean, maybe you really are just sexphobic, but if you think that queer sexuality has more actual prominence than straight sexuality, you're a) showing a confirmation bias and b) a goddamned idiot.

[H2SO4]

No, n, they DO. Also 'ignorant', 'bigot', and 'intolerant'.

"No" is not an argument, and neither are groundless personal insults.

You didn't realize I was being facetious. I was agreeing with you. Anyway.

Bolshevik, I think he's just talking about how much of a big deal people make about being gay. Like "Lance Bass: I'm GAY!" on the front cover of People magazine. Where's "Justin Timberlake: I'm STRAIGHT!"? It seems that people let sexuality define a lot of who they are, and I don't know about n, but that's what bothers me. Woo. You're gay. Great. Move on. I don't need to hear about it every six seconds. If you're going to point to 'Oh, but we hear about so-and-so's relationships ALL THE TIME!!' I'm against that too. People's love lives really don't matter to me. Especially not enough to hear about it daily. I don't care. Stop talking about it.

[TheGrammarBolshevik]

Bolshevik, I think he's just talking about how much of a big deal people make about being gay. Like "Lance Bass: I'm GAY!" on the front cover of People magazine. Where's "Justin Timberlake: I'm STRAIGHT!"? It seems that people let sexuality define a lot of who they are, and I don't know about n, but that's what bothers me.

(emphasis mine)

Was it gay people who made this a big deal? Gay people are coming out loudly and publicly as a forceful rejection of the pressure to be straight. There wouldn't be any need for this without the force of oppression, and sexuality wouldn't define queer people's lives if not for the pervasiveness of stereotypes. So fuck off with this victim-blaming bullshit.

After all, Lance Bass didn't design the cover of People Magazine. A team of mostly-straight artists and editors did. So when straight people decide that my sexuality, or Lance Bass's sexuality, or anyone's sexuality isn't such a big deal, I suspect you'll find that nobody will be rubbing queer sexuality in your face anymore.

[quintopia]

Eastwinn: Try this: The first time: Explain to them why it's offensive and what using it that way does.

Every other time: "What'd I tell you about that word, mate?" If that doesn't cause an improvement, try "Whoops! There's that word being used as an insult again! Conversation's over," and walk away. If that still doesn't work, just stop talking with those people entirely.

[Maseiken]

I love it when people are upset about people making too big a deal about someone's sexuality. Especially when they use the phrase "Rubbing it in our faces"

Does no-one else find that hilarious?
No?

Just me?
Ok, nevermind.

[Grokker]

Okay, let's how much fun it is to be on the side everyone disagrees with:

First of all, it is not my job to make sure everyone around me is all happy and calm with feathers un-ruffled. I am not going to go around checking everything I do to see whether or not it offends someone. I mean, if people really want to make some happy universe of harmony where where everyone gets along and everything is utterly in-offensive and bland, I guess go ahead, but I disagree with you. Just doesn't feel like the way to go through life to me.

Also, someone said something about the intent behind words that didn't matter. I believe this to be so very wrong. Words are fundamentally just air vibrations or collections of little symbols, they have no inherent meaning. They get their meaning from our intent, what we decide they mean. So if a person says something and means no insult, and another person is insulted, where did that insult come from? It seems like person two pulled it out of thin air.
Essentially it comes down to the fact that words are a tool for describing meaning. If someone uses a tool to hurt you, like they attacked you with a hammer, get mad at the person who wanted to hurt you, not the hammer. Then, If someone uses the hammer for something else, there is no reason get mad at them for that.


And Finally, what is with all the judging? I don't see who gave you guys all the soap-boxes from which you tell people what they can and can't say, or judge them for their word choice. I think people saying "You shouldn't say [blank]" or "Saying [blank] makes you [blank]" is much worse than most slurs or insults. I'd much rather hang around people who used gay as a pejorative than people who thought they had some right to control/judge what I say.

[Okay, so I lied about the finally, I have two small endnotes: First, words can mean more than on thing(cleave is a particularly weird example). When I use gay as a pejorative, it has nothing at all to do with homosexuality. Secondly, most of my beliefs are a bit more complex than what I explicitly stated here, this was just the easiest way to say some stuff that needed to be said.]

[Cup of Dirt]

Okay, so I lied about the finally, I have two small endnotes: First, words can mean more than on thing(cleave is a particularly weird example). When I use gay as a pejorative, it has nothing at all to do with homosexuality.

There's where your argument falls apart. Some words do have two different, completely separate meanings. An example is, well, "mean." The words in "What is the arithmetic mean?" and "It's mean to use 'gay' as a pejorative"* really do signify two completely different things. But other words have meanings that are different but related. "Running a race" and "Running for office" use the word "run" differently, but in a related way; in both definitions of the word there is a quality of striving toward a goal. The two meanings of "gay," the pejorative meaning and the synonym for homosexuality, fall into the second category; they're distinct but closely related. In my experience, the pejorative "gay" basically means pathetic, disordered, or unfortunate, which are well-known stereotypical attributes of gay people. But YOU don't use it that way. Why are people being so judgmental?

And Finally, what is with all the judging? I don't see who gave you guys all the soap-boxes from which you tell people what they can and can't say, or judge them for their word choice. I think people saying "You shouldn't say [blank]" or "Saying [blank] makes you [blank]" is much worse than most slurs or insults. I'd much rather hang around people who used gay as a pejorative than people who thought they had some right to control/judge what I say.

I assume you're not categorically against rules of civility. Some behaviors are clearly rude and you shouldn't do them. What other people on this thread are saying is, we would like to add using "gay" as an insult to that list. Here are the reasons. Do you agree?

*See what I did there?

[Giant Speck]

Do gay people get offended when straight people call each other "fags"?

[H2SO4]

Was it gay people who made this a big deal? Gay people are coming out loudly and publicly as a forceful rejection of the pressure to be straight. There wouldn't be any need for this without the force of oppression, and sexuality wouldn't define queer people's lives if not for the pervasiveness of stereotypes. So fuck off with this victim-blaming bullshit.

After all, Lance Bass didn't design the cover of People Magazine. A team of mostly-straight artists and editors did. So when straight people decide that my sexuality, or Lance Bass's sexuality, or anyone's sexuality isn't such a big deal, I suspect you'll find that nobody will be rubbing queer sexuality in your face anymore.

Let's see, Mormons were oppressed. Not one of them is having a "coming-out-as-Mormon" party to their friends. Not any Mormon celebrity has a People Magazine cover saying "Aaron Eckhart: I'm Mormon!"

I will admit, it's partly because people are fascinated with who's gay, not with who's Mormon. Now, why that is is another interesting topic. A lot, I think is because people want to be able to claim they aren't homophobic, much like white people who voted for Obama because they wanted to be able to claim they aren't racist. For some reason people have to prove they aren't prejudiced, not that they are. Not that Bill would try and convince Jill that he is prejudiced against a group, but I mean for some reason we have this base assumption that everyone's a racist/homophobe/other-pejorative-for-not-liking-a-certain-group until we see otherwise. Part of that assumption comes from those in the the not-liked group, part of that from people not in that group but side with them. No one group is responsible for the 'big deal' placed on something, but the 'big deal' is there, and it gets annoying. Oh, you don't like Obama? You must be a racist. It can't possibly be because you disagree with his policies. Oh, you don't like NSync? It must be because Lance Bass is gay. Homophobe. It can't be because someone can not like certain music. (Yes, I HAVE heard that one). Anything said about not liking someone/something that can be tied to any minority group is automatically labeled as hating that minority group and not any other factors.

In my experience, the pejorative "gay" basically means pathetic, disordered, or unfortunate, which are well-known stereotypical attributes of gay people.

I've heard it used three ways. One as the pejorative, one as an adjective to describe behavior, and one as an adjective to describe someone's actual sexuality.
First: Man, that movie was so gay. (No attraction between men was in the movie, but the movie was bad)
Second: Dude, the way you're standing is so gay right now.
Third: Clay Aiken is gay.
When means the first, no one is using it to compare to any 'well-known stereotypical attributes of gay people' (which I will point out that those you listed are none of them). That's the second one. Yes, that one is generally a pejorative when said to a straight man, but in my experience, my gay friends (yes, I DO have gay friends) don't get offended when it's said to them. They actually agree with it. They even make jokes about it. The third meaning needs no explanation.