HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

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benneh
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby benneh » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:37 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:
benneh wrote:Before responding to anything, I have a query: shouldn't my 1 have grabbed thecaromninja's 1? (meaning that vyturn's N should have been pushed 1 hex further (in turn, meaning that vyturn's N should have survived))


Okay guys, need input for this, I had never seen before something like this happening, so, a hex that is grabbed and grabs another adjacent hex can make that hex occupy the place of it?

I don't think I can make a rule about this by myself, as such a decision would benefit me (since my N would live.)

Lawsome's very first post where he explains the rules of the game includes an example of this in the section on grabbing. Essentially, grabbing a hex has the effect of causing that hex to move in the direction of the grab. So this works for the same reason that you can move a hex into the space occupied by another hex that has just moved out of the way.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:42 pm UTC

Ah, gotcha, the description with the range of 2 confused me, but yes, it's clarified in the example.

Retcon coming soon.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:48 pm UTC

Turn 32 Redux:
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http://www.ultraimg.com/images/zdau.png


Note: scores still need double checking.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:02 pm UTC

My moves are unchanged.
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benneh
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby benneh » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:31 pm UTC

moves:
Spoiler:
N attack up-right
W attack down
1 attack down
2 move down-right
3 move down-right

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:56 pm UTC

Moves:
Spoiler:
N - Attack D
3 - Attack UL
W - Grab UL
1 - Grab DL
2 - Attack UL

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby thecamoninja » Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:43 pm UTC

moves
Spoiler:
1 attack down
2 pull up-left
3 move down
N move up
W push up-left
Formerly known as Camoninja
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Join /FG/ on Discord
Hardcore will never die, but you will.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:20 pm UTC

Turn 33:
<removed to avoid confusion>

(Note: Scores still need rechecking)
Last edited by Vytron on Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:26 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

Moves:
Spoiler:
N - move down-right
W - move down
2 - move down
1 - move up
3 - move up
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benneh
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby benneh » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

I appear to have scored two points for killing thecaromninja's 1 twice, even though by the time my 1 attacked thecaromninja's 1 it was already dead. Is that intentional?

moves:
Spoiler:
N move up-right
W push down
1 attack down
2 move down
3 grab down-right


EDIT: The 1 point discrepancy with the scores seems to have crept it at the turn 27 redux, then everything added up fine on turn 28. Then the discrepancy was back on turn 31. Then there was a 2 point discrepancy at the turn 32 redux. Then it was back down to a 1 point discrepancy on turn 33 (now).

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:54 pm UTC

You should only get 1 point for killing camo's 1.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:27 pm UTC

Okay, this board should have the scores right, 2 points were added to camo at some round for some reason o_O

Round 33 Redux:
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http://www.ultraimg.com/images/FtyXR.png

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benneh
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby benneh » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:33 am UTC

dudiobugtron wrote:You should only get 1 point for killing camo's 1.

If I had killed a hex with two of my hexes at the same time, would I get 1 or 2 points?

(also, my moves are unchanged)

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:47 am UTC

benneh wrote:
dudiobugtron wrote:You should only get 1 point for killing camo's 1.

If I had killed a hex with two of my hexes at the same time, would I get 1 or 2 points?

(also, my moves are unchanged)

1 point, unless you were two different players. Vytron's ruling is that in that case, you'd each get half.

My moves are unchanged.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:23 am UTC

dudiobugtron wrote: Vytron's ruling is that in that case, you'd each get half.


No, my ruling was that each player gets a point, and the player that has it killed loses two points, that's why I did that initially, but, yeah, only the Ninja should get the point.

On simultaneous kills, I think a player should get 2 points when killing a hex with two hexes, two players doing it shouldn't be a special case, hexes are hexes.

Moves
Spoiler:
3 - Attack UL
2 - Move UL
W - Move DL
1 - Move DL
N - Attack DR

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Elmach » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:32 am UTC

Moves
Spoiler:
2: Attack Downright
1: Grab Downright
3: Attack Upright
N: Stubbornly Refuse to do Anything
W: Push Downright

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:36 am UTC

My apologies for misrepresenting you.

Anyway, I think the ideal solution is that each player who killed a hex gets one point, and the losing player loses 1 point. However, this won't work because the points don't sum to zero, and so it gives perverse incentives for players to gain points by trading hexes.
Lawsome suggested the 2 for 2 rule as a stop-gap measure to balance the score while still allowing players to get full kill credit, not becuase it is an ideal way to do the scoring. So, for that reaosn, I think we shouldn't also apply that rule to the case of one player double-killing a hex. I think it would encourage gameplay that would make the game slightly worse.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:51 am UTC

Since as it is it's very hard to kill a hex (that's why many players are in negative score) I don't see how the gameplay would be worse if players were able, and rewarded, for killing that hex twice simultaneously.

I don't like that scores depend on the color of the hexes, it should depend on the actions of the hexes (so, for instance, for a player, all enemies are "grey hexes", so if two "grey hexes" hit one of yours, you lose two points, it doesn't matter if in reality those hexes belong to the same player or different players).

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Elmach » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:53 am UTC

I like the half-point idea for this state; it's like half-stealing a kill.

Because either way, only one hex is dying, just that the point gets shared.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:10 am UTC

Elmach's solution meets Vytron's criteria, since it is the same rule regardless of hex colour (if you are killed by n hexes, each hex earns it's controller 1/n points).

Vytron's argument that the criteria should be independent of colour is compelling.

Vytron's argument that his double-points solution would alleviate the plight of people with negative scores is not at all compelling, though. The scores will all add to zero regardless.
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benneh
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby benneh » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:25 am UTC

For what it's worth, I'm in favour of the "all the killers share a single point" approach. It seems to be the most 'invariant' option; you only lose 1 point when your hex dies, regardless of how it dies. The game being zero-sum takes care of the rest.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby patzer » Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

Moves
Spoiler:
1 move up
2 attack down-left
3 move up-left
N grab up-left
W push up
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:09 pm UTC

Okay, I'll implement "a dead hex by two enemy hexes makes the loser lose 1 point and the victors gain 0.5 points", but I disagree on "on this state of the game", if such a scheme was implemented, I'd like to retcon previous scores to be used that way to remain consistent, is that fine?

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

I'm happy with that.

I'd be slightly happier with 'keep the scoring system the same and don't do any retconning', but only very slightly.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:53 pm UTC

Okay, the only event when 2 hexes of different players killed another was on turn 9, with bower (Vytron) and camo killing benneh, so by applying sharing of points retroactively, the scores would be:

Dudio: 3
Vytron: -3.5
Camo: -7.5
Patzer: 6
Benneh: 0
Elmach: 2

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby kalira » Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

I just saw this thread for the first time... Read through the first 4ish pages, then clicked to page 32. Holy cow, the game has changed from its origins. I think it's really cool how you folks have evolved this in the year and a half since it was first posted here. Now I feel the need to read through all the rest of the pages I skipped to see how it got to here from there.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program.
plytho wrote:Isn't bowling just a subcategory of pottery?

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

Oh, hi kalira! Welcome to the game!

Also, remember that I'm mod and playing, but I could just mod, so my position in the game is free for takes, feel free to replace me if you want to play! :)

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby kalira » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:50 pm UTC

Oh I'm not familiar enough with the rules of this iteration to jump in at this point. I shall read up, however.
plytho wrote:Isn't bowling just a subcategory of pottery?

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Elmach » Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:55 pm UTC

Anyone up for a parallel game?

The map I'm thinking of has drones, moving landscape, editable landscapes, yeah. Needs six players.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:21 pm UTC

I did really not like the random moving drones of the other game, part of the fun is prediction, and when something is unpredictable...

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Thu Nov 14, 2013 12:21 am UTC

Still waiting for thecamoninja, deadline is 24 hours.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Elmach » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:06 am UTC

I'm pretty sure 10012 hours have passed; given the 2012 hours given, I think that it is time to move on.
And/or get a replacement.
----
I can make an FSM for the drones and have it be completely deterministic; however, I will not give out the algorithm, unless we need another player for the other game.

Just wondering, are people interested in a parallel game?

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Elmach » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:14 am UTC

I'm pretty sure 10012 hours have passed; given the 2012 hours given, I think that it is time to move on.
And/or get a replacement.
----
I can make an FSM for the drones and have it be completely deterministic; however, I will not give out the algorithm, unless we need another player for the other game.

Just wondering, are people interested in a parallel game?

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby benneh » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:48 pm UTC

Elmach wrote:I'm pretty sure 10012 hours have passed; given the 2012 hours given, I think that it is time to move on.
And/or get a replacement.

I don't know about anybody else, but the forums have been really slow for me for the past few days, to the point of being almost unusable.

Elmach wrote:I can make an FSM for the drones and have it be completely deterministic; however, I will not give out the algorithm, unless we need another player for the other game.

Just wondering, are people interested in a parallel game?

I would be interested in a parallel game. But when Vytron says random is bad, I assume he means unpredictable is bad, as opposed to non-deterministic is bad. That's certainly my opinion, anyway.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:11 am UTC

Slow for me too.

Game is Lawsome's IP, so possibly should check with him before making a spin-off game.

benneh wrote:when Vytron says random is bad, I assume he means unpredictable is bad, as opposed to non-deterministic is bad. That's certainly my opinion, anyway.

For anyone else except Vytron, I'd agree with you. However, I would have done as Elmach did, and assume Vytron meant non-deterministic is bad.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Vytron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:21 am UTC

Yes, I meant unpredictable is bad, so I'd support a game with drones that are expected to act in some way, so the game would be interesting in the way players get creative trying to out-strategize the drones better than other players, similar to Video Game competitions where players try to outsmart the AI (but the AI's actions are predictable.)

Also, HEXATTACK is a game created by Lawsome, however, nobody stops you from creating your own game which is similar to it, but, totally unrelated, as long as you don't promote a connection, you could call it SEXTDANCE, where we move Sexts around, instead of Hexes, or something.

Also, yeah, I couldn't reach the forum until now :shock: I don't know if camo's having the same problem, so, in the interest of fairness this game will be put on hold until the Forum becomes stable or more players want to move along without camo/find replacement.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby Elmach » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:27 am UTC

same about the forums; it took four hours to access the forum yesterday

also, haitches pushing would probably be the name of my spinoff.

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:57 am UTC

Camo posted in another forum game saying he was busy, but that he still wanted to keep playing. Not sure if that applies to this game too, and also not sure if it still applies after the recent 'little death'.
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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby patzer » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:12 am UTC

The forums were very slow for me for the last few days (took 1-2 minutes to load any page), but they are okay now.

I don't see any problem with presenting Elmach's game as a spinoff of Hexattack? There has been a lot of variation in previous games with the additions of drones, zombies and ninjas, and I don't see how this is different. I would be interested in playing Elmach's game as long as it doesn't involve too much randomness/luck.
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: HEXATTACK (Now starting!)

Postby dudiobugtron » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:02 am UTC

patzer wrote:I don't see any problem with presenting Elmach's game as a spinoff of Hexattack? There has been a lot of variation in previous games with the additions of drones, zombies and ninjas, and I don't see how this is different.

The difference is, Elmach didn't invent the game. I don't personally mind, and I doubt very much Lawsome does either, I'm just saying it's probably the respectful thing to do to check with him first. Perhaps I'm over-reacting though, so apologies if that is the case/
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