Chess

[mattmacf]

Oh damn beat to the punch on the last post. That's actually very very interesting; I did not anticipate that move.

[yy2bggggs]

Oh damn beat to the punch on the last post. That's actually very very interesting; I did not anticipate that move.

I analyzed it a bit for warriorness on irc. I pretty much think this was white's only good response.

[mattmacf]

Alright, the smoke hath cleared and I can now discuss why f6 was a very risky move (and consequently why Nd3 was a suboptimal one). To put it into perspective, let's go back to .... f6 and follow other possibilities.

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The move I was most worried about in this situation was Be3+. By playing this, white likely winds up winning an exchange and ends with two rooks to black's queen. It plays out as follows.

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.... f6
Be3+ Kg7
Nxd7 Qxd7
Bh6+ Kxh6
Rxe8

The only alternative to this would be Kh5 instead of Kg7, but that comes with another set of problems (such as g4+).



Another possibility from ... f6 was obviously the bishop baiting the knight. If the knight takes the bishop (Nxd7), black wins an exchange with Rxe2 (with Rxe2 Qxe2 possibly to follow).



Now the most interesting possibility would have been Nf7+ (likely followed by Kg7). This is also a good position for white, but it can get screwy if white tries to get greedy. The best move for white from here is

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.... f6
Nf7+ Kg7
Rxe8 Bxe8
Nd6

...where black loses a bishop with the knight fork (taking the bishop also gives check, preventing a black counterattack). At best, Kh5 instead of Kg7 again is a slightly better move, but appears to get just as ugly.

The final possibility I accounted for is similar to the above, but instead of Rxe8, white gets greedy and attempts to fork the queen and the rook with Nd6. In this situation, black gains two rooks and a knight for the queen with

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.... f6
Nf7+ Kg7
Nd6  Rxe2
Nxb5 Rxe1+
Kh2  axb5

Regardless, none of these situations are currently the case, and I can't move for a while, so it's up to somebody else this time around...

EDIT:

I analyzed it a bit for warriorness on irc. I pretty much think this was white's only good response.

Close, but I think checking with the bishop may have been more productive.

[yy2bggggs]

Alright, the smoke hath cleared and I can now discuss why f6 was a very risky move (and consequently why Nd3 was a suboptimal one). To put it into perspective, let's go back to .... f6 and follow other possibilities.

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The move I was most worried about in this situation was Be3+. By playing this, white likely winds up winning an exchange and ends with two rooks to black's queen. It plays out as follows.

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.... f6
Be3+ ...

The only alternative to this would be Kh5 instead of Kg7, but that comes with another set of problems (such as g4+).

Where truncated: g5.

Edit: Okay, after playing this out, I guess it winds up not being bad.

Now the most interesting possibility would have been Nf7+ (likely followed by Kg7). This is also a good position for white, but it can get screwy if white tries to get greedy. The best move for white from here is

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.... f6
Nf7+ Kg7
Rxe8 Bxe8
Nd6

...where black loses a bishop with the knight fork (taking the bishop also gives check, preventing a black counterattack).

Black moves Qb4, making another fork. Nxe8+, Ke7. Now what?

Still, the whole thing is like dancing on egg shells I suppose, especially given this is forum chess.

[yy2bggggs]

Repeated here for clarity (since there's a page change and some discussion).

The current move and last position is:

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Nd3

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Black to play.

[mattmacf]

Black moves Qb4, making another fork. Nxe8+, Ke7. Now what?

I didn't pick up on this one. Nice catch. I think playing through this would leave black still with a slight piecewise advantage (although much closer to an endgame position).

Where truncated: g5.

Edit: Okay, after playing this out, I guess it winds up not being bad.

Not sure if you played it out the way I did, but this would be incredible for white. After

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.... f6
Be3+ g5

white could play hxg5+ or Nxd7. After the pawn capture, black can either respond with fxg5 or Kh5 (Kg7 is just laughably bad). Moving the king puts white up a pawn, leaves black in terrible position and gives white the chance to sac their knight to push for promotion. Taking with the F pawn puts us in nearly the same position as we were before hxg5+.

White can also play Nxd7 (regardless of whether or not there was a pawn exchange) and open up a discovered attack along the E file. If black counters with Qxd7, white gladly takes a rook for the bishop with Bxg5+. At the very least, I believe white escapes with a minor piece and takes a commanding lead in both material and initiative.

I think any way you dice it, checking with the bishop would've brought out a world of hurt for black, but alas I didn't get caught trying to get cute with the F pawn. It'll be very interesting to see what happens next, especially given this is forum chess

[Twasbrillig]

I think this will stimulate some discussion. I think it's the best move, considering the king's relatively locked position right now. Not the best for right now, but the endgame. The whole bishop thing isn't the biggest issue for black right now.

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White to play.

Also, remember it can't turn into a 1v1 guys... be patient.

[Tractor]

It's sad, I want to contribute more, but I am so very beyond my chess depth. At this point, I'd just fuck it up...and I don't want to try something only to find it's stupid and get a few "WTF? You totally cost [color] the game!?"
I'll just wait for the next game.

[Gelsamel]

Go for it!

[mattmacf]

It's sad, I want to contribute more, but I am so very beyond my chess depth. At this point, I'd just fuck it up...and I don't want to try something only to find it's stupid and get a few "WTF? You totally cost [color] the game!?"
I'll just wait for the next game.

Just jump in. If I was looking for a serious game, I wouldn't be making a move a day on a random web forum. More than anything, I'm enjoying the ability to make intelligent critques on each board position as it comes up and play alongside a variety of other people of various skill levels. And I can say that i certainly have no stake in either side winning. Just chime in and make a move or two and see how it goes.

That being said, I do believe I've waited my requisite two moves to go again. Time for white to force the issue. Possibly not the best move, but I think one of the more exciting ones. Rxe8.

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Black to play.

[Twasbrillig]

Not cool, matt. Not cool at all. I wouldn't ever sacrifice 2 rooks for a rook and a bishop. EVER.

[mattmacf]

Not cool, matt. Not cool at all. I wouldn't ever sacrifice 2 rooks for a rook and a bishop. EVER.

Who said anything about sacking both rooks? It's a one-for-one with the rooks as far as I can tell. Unless you had something else in mind? If black plays Bxe8, there's nothing forcing Rxe8. Like I said, it's probably not the best move, although I figured it might thin the board out a little bit for better or for worse. And at the very least it pins the queen to defend the bishop for at least a move, I believe costing black a tempo. I also think it might be very big to have the only rook left on the E file, especially with the king back to the inside of the pawns again (this time with no protection from the rear F pawn now that it's been advanced).

If you had a better move though, I'd honestly like to hear it. I really didn't think the position through too much before I made it and just acted on the "TAKE THE ROOK TAKE THE ROOK!!" idea running through my head

[Ended]

bxe8 Re7+ looking promising for white...?

edit disclaimer: my chess is a bit rusty, just thinking out loud

[Twasbrillig]

Not cool, matt. Not cool at all. I wouldn't ever sacrifice 2 rooks for a rook and a bishop. EVER.

Who said anything about sacking both rooks? It's a one-for-one with the rooks as far as I can tell. Unless you had something else in mind? If black plays Bxe8, there's nothing forcing Rxe8. Like I said, it's probably not the best move, although I figured it might thin the board out a little bit for better or for worse. And at the very least it pins the queen to defend the bishop for at least a move, I believe costing black a tempo. I also think it might be very big to have the only rook left on the E file, especially with the king back to the inside of the pawns again (this time with no protection from the rear F pawn now that it's been advanced).

If you had a better move though, I'd honestly like to hear it. I really didn't think the position through too much before I made it and just acted on the "TAKE THE ROOK TAKE THE ROOK!!" idea running through my head

How about Nc5? That's where I'd play :S

Since white is down a queen, I'd desperately keep both rooks. It's just not practical not to have rooks - black can mate faster with the queen than white can with only 1 rook.

[warriorness]

Twas: Too late now.

bxe8 Re7+ looking promising for white...?

edit disclaimer: my chess is a bit rusty, just thinking out loud

Yeah, I was thinking that too. That forces the king to abandon the pawn on f6 to the mercy of white's bishop. (EDIT: No it doesn't. I'm an idiot. Black can play Bf7 to block.)

[Ended]

Black can play Bf7 to block.

yeah, I was thinking Ne5 to counter that...only problem is, it would free black's queen (which is currently in quite a poor position)

[mattmacf]

How about Nc5? That's where I'd play :S

Erm either you're kidding or you didn't think that move through. Nc5 follows with

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.... Rxe2
Rxe2 Qxe2
Nxd7

and now white is down two minor pieces to the queen.

Playing through some of the possibilities right now, I think white is in rather excellent shape. Assuming Bxe8 (how come nobody's made this move yet?) I think either Nc5 or Re7+ can deliver a final punishing blow to black. I'm not entirely sure how yet white still has all kinds of initiative and black is in terrible position. The bishop has no natural place to develop and the queen (for the moment) is trapped into defending the bishop. The queen also has nowhere productive to go to mount a counterattack.

Looking at black's position, I'm not sure how to recover from it. I think if white keeps up the pressure, the slight piece disadvantage will ultimately become immaterial.

[mattmacf]

Black can play Bf7 to block.

yeah, I was thinking Ne5 to counter that...only problem is, it would free black's queen (which is currently in quite a poor position)

Actually Ne5 loses the knight to black's pawn. I think if this situation were to happen, white might have a chance to start pushing pawns and start to threaten promotion. a4 might be a decent response. I also wouldn't worry too much about black's queen at the moment. Right now white's king is still very well protected and the black king is running out of places to hide. Like I said before, black may not be able to recover and mount a decent counterattack to stave off white's advances.

[Ended]

Actually Ne5 loses the knight to black's pawn.

argh, of course.

Ok, I think it's obvious that black has to take the rook, otherwise white's material advantage and the twin rooks will win the game easily. Also, if black doesn't take the rook, white plays R1e7+ and black is in a lot of trouble.

bxe8

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[Tractor]

Alright, since y'all insist.

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Re7+

[Twasbrillig]

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White to play.

[yy2bggggs]

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Bc5

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Black to play.

[mattmacf]

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Rxh7

Score one for white! A minor victory, but I believe this evens out the point total (depending on how you're counting). Again, I'm not sure if this is the best move, but I think it's a reasonably solid one. I was also considering
Bxf6, but I decided against it for a couple of reasons:

1) Black has doubled f pawns with is decidedly a distinct disadvantage. Taking the non-doubled one IMHO is a bigger victory than the already emaciated one on f6.
2) Now Rh8+ becomes a threat for white (well at least a nuisance I think).
3) Bxf6 is still an option unless black defends with its queen (again if that's what happens, it's another thorn in black's side).
4) I like that black's d pawn has nowhere to go right now. I'm not entirely keen on changing that atm.
5) Qc6 forks the white's bishop and c pawn. Saving the bishop would lead to the loss of said pawn as well as threats to the Knight, the a pawn, and check to the king on the back row. Not fun.
5) Yes I said a couple. I lied. Bxf6 is the first idea I came up with. Frankly, I think it's just a less interesting move

Now to play devil's advocate for a second, reasons why Bxf6 might have been a better alternative:

1) Kg8 might be a reasonable counterattack, losing white a tempo with a rook retreat
2) Taking the pawn on f6 allows the white knight to develop to e5. This might be an important square in the not too distant future, although f4 and c5 are both logical alternatives.
3) Taking the pawn puts the bishop right in blacks face. This could lead to a potential mate (although I think the queen would prevent that)

EDIT: D'OH! Should've checked to see if someone moved before I posted. Just disregard my move and commentary (I'll leave it up there for posterity ). For the record, the move made was Bc5 and the board position is as follows:

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Black to play

[yy2bggggs]

Score one for white! A minor victory, but I believe this evens out the point total (depending on how you're counting). Again, I'm not sure if this is the best move, but I think it's a reasonably solid one.

You're a bit too late on the move. Composing strategic discussion takes time huh?

[mattmacf]

Score one for white! A minor victory, but I believe this evens out the point total (depending on how you're counting). Again, I'm not sure if this is the best move, but I think it's a reasonably solid one.

You're a bit too late on the move. Composing strategic discussion takes time huh?

Haha indeed it does. Although maybe I should've spent a bit more time checking out alternatives. That's actually a great thing for white because I think it's a much better move. Now black is threatened with a devastating discovered check and the loss of its queen. Now I'm stuck thinking of a decent response for black to make...

[mattmacf]

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Alright, I'll give it a go. The only two moves I can think of are Kg8 and Qa5. This time my strategy is nothing more than "coin came up heads." By that token, Kg8

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White to play.

[warriorness]

Looking back two moves...

Bc5

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Black to play.

Why didn't you play Bxf6? Free pawn, and that discovered check set-up is about as subtle as a punch in the face.

[yy2bggggs]

Why didn't you play Bxf6? Free pawn, and that discovered check set-up is about as subtle as a punch in the face.

Ah, but the point wasn't to set a one move trap, but to keep control.

Bxf6 could have played out something like this:

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Bxf6  Qc5
Bg5   Qxc2

That's an even pawn trade, just pushed out a move. But it's a far, far worse position for white; now the knight is threatened, and black's queen is positioned to completely destroy white's pawn structure.

As it stands currently, white is in control.

[Twasbrillig]

You guys talk too much.

Let's free up that rook.

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Black to play.

[yy2bggggs]

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d4

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White to play

[mattmacf]

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Bc5

It keeps looking worse and worse for black. I think the d pawn is officially dead right now. The only saving grace I can fathom is that as the pawns start falling off, the queen and bishop may have an opportunity to make themselves useful.

Also, not to sound like a knock yy2bggggs, but I think this is the first move I've seen you make that I disagree with. I feel like g5 would have been a much more liberating move. Either white pushes the pawn and loses it to the bishop, or we get a pawn exchange and the f pawn becomes undoubled to the g file and black has three connected pawns once again.

After this exchange, black would also outnumber white 3-2 in pawns on the right side. It also gives white's bishop a place to develop (h5 or possibly g6) and become useful in pushing a pawn counterattack towards the white king with the possibility for promotion.

Not moving the d pawn would have also been wise IMHO. This would keep the d pawn on the white square (black's got a white bishop and white's got a black one), keeping its survival more likely for a little longer. The d and a pawn, while not terribly useful on their own, could be a thorn in white's side during a possibly promotion charge from the left.

Of course nothing prevents chalking up the pawn as lost and playing g5 next move Out of curiosity, would it have been better to have played h5 this move and forced black's hand in the pawn exchange (or at the very least pushed the pawn up to h3 locking in black's pawn and forcing black to get rid of it before making a serious pawn attack)?

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Black to play.

[yy2bggggs]

...I think the d pawn is officially dead right now.

Oh I don't know about that.

[Twasbrillig]

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White to play.

[Tractor]

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Bxd4
Black to play.

[yy2bggggs]

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Qd5

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White to play.

[Twasbrillig]

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Black to play.

[Tractor]

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Qxg2

Erm, checkmate?

[yy2bggggs]

Black wins.

Board position is reset. This time I'll leave the first move up for grabs.

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R N B Q K B N R

White to play.

(game summary added to new post below)

[Gelsamel]

New thread?

[Tractor]

New thread?

Yeah, I think so. I'll go start one...